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Thread: Not sure how this will float??

  1. #1

    Default Not sure how this will float??

    WHY A 240GR WOOLEIGH IN A 300WBY?


    Killing potential, knock down power, sock power all have proponents and exponents. That is why I am going to attempt a 240gr bullet out of a 300WBY Mag. Creating and eclectic result that combines all of the above in a balanced killing potential. What do I mean? If the above three ideas or even valid at all it will depend on bullet construction if they are going to be married into an effective killer cartridge and load. You can not talk about K/energy or Momentum and compare or combine either of these and talk Killing Potential, Knock Down, or Sock Power without first using the same type of bullet construction “for the fast little bullet”, “the big slow bullet”, or “the medium moderate moving bullet” but that creates a problem because this is not possible due to bullet weight, frontal mass ect. Nor is this a debate that actually can be won. So what am I doing?
    I am going to try a theory of mine that develops a balance between K/energy, Momentum and Bullet Construction and caliber. Why? To try and accomplish as close as possible an effective killing potential that has “good K/energy” like Fast Little Bullets do and “Momentum” like Big Slow moving bullets do, using a medium weight bullet and a cartridge that has the velocity to accomplish the task. Let me begin by stating the premise of my idea. My Hypotheses: “K/energy tears things up while the Momentum of the bullet takes the K/energy deep as possible trying to exit the target delivering continued destructive energy while the momentum of the bullet punches a hole for air to be sucked in and blood to flow out while all the time sending a shock wave through out the vital area of the target doing collateral vessel and skeletal damage.” To shorten this statement I would say, “I really believe that energy tears up things and momentum takes the energy to the deep places and hopefully all the way through.”
    Now if I am any where in the arena of reality, truth, cause and effect, with this idea of mine which is not perfect in exactness or all the variables that are impossible to cover at the moment, then this 240gr load I am developing just might be close to accomplishing my idea of a well balanced killing potential. In driving a 240gr bullet at 2750 out of my 300Wby mag I think all of the above can be met. Sufficient energy “due to velocity”, sufficient “Momentum due to bullet weight”, sufficient “Shock Wave Effect due to bullet construction (opening and holding together)”, deep devastating tissue destruction due to “bullet weight, velocity and construction”. Well I hope my test of accuracy, and penetration bear out my Hypotheses. JUST FOR FUN.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  2. #2

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    I drove a 250gr barnes at 2690fps using 74gr RL-22 so I will get 2750 out of the 240gr and stay with in max pressures.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  3. #3

    Default Ummm, okay...

    I am not going to attempt to follow all the specifics of your thread, because in some places, you are comparing things that can't actually be compared. 240 grains is not a medium weight bullet in 300 Weatherby. A 165 bullet would be a medium weight and a 180 to 200 grain would be heavy, so 240 grain would be a heavy for caliber bullet. Energy alone does not "tear things up." It is how that energy is applied that would create greater or lesser destruction of, in this case, animal bone and tissue. If you are using one of the various premium bullets on today's market, the bonded core or H-mantle style bullet, you wouldn't need extra weight to accomplish your goal(s). A premium 180 to 200 grain bullet, one that is meant to expand and penetrate, would accomplish what you are seeking to do, causing high shock power and ample penetration to the point of a through and through, creating a full wound channel and entry and exit holes for air in/blood out. Using a heavier bullet would not necessarily make this happen any better. Gonna keep this simple, so there's my 2 cents worth.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    I am not going to attempt to follow all the specifics of your thread, because in some places, you are comparing things that can't actually be compared. 240 grains is not a medium weight bullet in 300 Weatherby. A 165 bullet would be a medium weight and a 180 to 200 grain would be heavy, so 240 grain would be a heavy for caliber bullet. Energy alone does not "tear things up." It is how that energy is applied that would create greater or lesser destruction of, in this case, animal bone and tissue. If you are using one of the various premium bullets on today's market, the bonded core or H-mantle style bullet, you wouldn't need extra weight to accomplish your goal(s). A premium 180 to 200 grain bullet, one that is meant to expand and penetrate, would accomplish what you are seeking to do, causing high shock power and ample penetration to the point of a through and through, creating a full wound channel and entry and exit holes for air in/blood out. Using a heavier bullet would not necessarily make this happen any better. Gonna keep this simple, so there's my 2 cents worth.
    It is good stuff! What I meant was not a medium weight for the 300WBY but a meduim weight between small fast cal.s and Heavy slow cal.s. I like your post and I am certainly aware of the 200gr. premium bullets which I will be trying four of them. thanks
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  5. #5

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    Mauserboy, Your statement that energy alone does not tear things up - is correct yet in light of the fact that with out energy nothing is torn up. That is how I am using "Energy tears things up" for without it there is no discussion to be had about anything being torn up.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  6. #6

    Talking

    Beartooth,

    After following the posts on this forum for over a year, I decided that there is no perfect bullet and that every design is a compromise that has a best application. I just spent a couple of days reorganizing my loading data to best match bullets to cartridges within caliber, and bullets to velocity and use on thin skinned, thick skinned, or dangerous game.

    I too, have been interested in the big Woodleigh 30's for my 06. I believe that Woodleigh brought these out for the 100th anniversary of the cartridge. From your previous posts, I take it that you've contacted Woodleigh about the velocity window for these bullets. What is the upper limit before they overexpand? I don't believe that they will come apart but they might get a really big frontal area that would limit penetration.

    Since research and experimentation is half the fun of shooting and hunting, I'm not going to second guess you, but since you bought a new rifle I'm just sort of wondering why not a .338 Win Mag, since 240 gr. at 2750 fps basically duplicates the 250 gr. .338 loads, and I would imagine that the Wby would have more felt recoil?

    If you shoot any of those big torpedos out of your 06 let us know how they work. It sure looks like fun to me.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer55 View Post
    Beartooth,

    After following the posts on this forum for over a year, I decided that there is no perfect bullet and that every design is a compromise that has a best application. I just spent a couple of days reorganizing my loading data to best match bullets to cartridges within caliber, and bullets to velocity and use on thin skinned, thick skinned, or dangerous game.

    I too, have been interested in the big Woodleigh 30's for my 06. I believe that Woodleigh brought these out for the 100th anniversary of the cartridge. From your previous posts, I take it that you've contacted Woodleigh about the velocity window for these bullets. What is the upper limit before they overexpand? I don't believe that they will come apart but they might get a really big frontal area that would limit penetration.

    Since research and experimentation is half the fun of shooting and hunting, I'm not going to second guess you, but since you bought a new rifle I'm just sort of wondering why not a .338 Win Mag, since 240 gr. at 2750 fps basically duplicates the 250 gr. .338 loads, and I would imagine that the Wby would have more felt recoil?

    If you shoot any of those big torpedos out of your 06 let us know how they work. It sure looks like fun to me.
    Yes, I did contact Woodleigh to make sure in my 06 and 300WBY that I would be within the design intent of the heavy bullets and both cal.s will handle the big bullets with in design limits according to Woodleigh and will not open to much so as to limit penatration but due to coef., weight and bullet design will actually out pentrate some larger cal.s at similar velocities pushing same weight bullets. Of course we will see if this is the case, the jury is still out. As for picking the 300WBY over the 338 when using the 240gr bullet has nothing to do with me thinking the 300WBY is better. The only reason is that it gives me 338 killing power and at the same time when I change from big and dangerous game I can go to a smaller well made bullets and reach places that the 338 can not like across canyons and at the same time if I hunt white or cous that require long shots the 300WBY can get there for me and do so without a lot of drop to deal with.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    Yes, I did contact Woodleigh to make sure in my 06 and 300WBY that I would be within the design intent of the heavy bullets and both cal.s will handle the big bullets with in design limits according to Woodleigh and will not open to much so as to limit penatration but due to coef., weight and bullet design will actually out pentrate some larger cal.s at similar velocities pushing same weight bullets. Of course we will see if this is the case, the jury is still out. As for picking the 300WBY over the 338 when using the 240gr bullet has nothing to do with me thinking the 300WBY is better. The only reason is that it gives me 338 killing power and at the same time when I change from big and dangerous game I can go to a smaller well made bullets and reach places that the 338 can not like across canyons and at the same time if I hunt white or cous that require long shots the 300WBY can get there for me and do so without a lot of drop to deal with.
    If it was that easy there would not be a need for more than one cartridge. For example, you can shoot far with a 180-grain TSX for the .338WM loaded to produce 3,120 fps at the muzzle. The standard Federal 180-grain PP load does that, but I doubt that anybody in Alaska will go moose hunting-in bear country with 180-grain .338 bullets. More than likely the bullet will be somewhere around 250-grains in weight.

    Where the .338WM does its best in Alaska, where shots are usually taken within reasonable ranges (not across canyons), is with heavy bullets. One can use the 250 grainers for all around hunting, and the heavier ones from 275 to 300 grains for close-up hunting of bears, bison, etc.

    One cannot make a .330Wby out of a .338WM. The same way, one can't make a .375H&H out of a .338WM, because of the differences in bore diameters. Now, you should be able to make a .338RUM out of your .300Wby (same bore diameter, and similar powder charges).

  9. #9

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    Beartooth,

    I get the lighter cross canyon reasoning, but my Hornady ballistics table shows the .338 200 gr spire point zeroed for 300 yards to be only 11.6 inches low at 400 yards and -31.7 at 500. A .308 180 gr spire point is -10 at 400 and -26.9 at 500 yards. The difference is only 1 inch at 400 yards and 5 at 500. A 338 Ultra Mag and a 225 SST or IB is within an inch at 400 yards and 2 inches at 500 yards. A 338-378, now we're talking . . . . I'm not trying rain on your parade just provoke a little discussion. Sometimes I think we get too hung up on what caliber and what you're doing is showing that the 30's are more versatile than many give them credit for. Now, if only Jack and Elmer could get their 2c worth in.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    If it was that easy there would not be a need for more than one cartridge. For example, you can shoot far with a 180-grain TSX for the .338WM loaded to produce 3,120 fps at the muzzle. The standard Federal 180-grain PP load does that, but I doubt that anybody in Alaska will go moose hunting-in bear country with 180-grain .338 bullets. More than likely the bullet will be somewhere around 250-grains in weight.

    Where the .338WM does its best in Alaska, where shots are usually taken within reasonable ranges, is with heavy bullets. One can use the 250 grainers for all around hunting, and the heavier ones from 275 to 300 grains for close-up hunting of bears, bison, etc.
    Yes I believe you have a strong point and a good one. I would agree completely with you but I do not hunt in Alaska and hope I will soon so I have other shots that I have made with my Ruger #1 300WBY on deer, (last long shot in front of my guide was over 523 yds) The 338 can not reach places that the 300WBY can and that is not even a debate. But what you said about Alaska from all I have read and talked to people about is certainly true. That is why I said, that I am not saying the 300WBY is better than the 338 but that being said I will use my 300WBY and with the 240gr kill anything the 338 can and maybe just as good in some cases.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
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    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer55 View Post
    Beartooth,

    I get the lighter cross canyon reasoning, but my Hornady ballistics table shows the .338 200 gr spire point zeroed for 300 yards to be only 11.6 inches low at 400 yards and -31.7 at 500. A .308 180 gr spire point is -10 at 400 and -26.9 at 500 yards. The difference is only 1 inch at 400 yards and 5 at 500. A 338 Ultra Mag and a 225 SST or IB is within an inch at 400 yards and 2 inches at 500 yards. A 338-378, now we're talking . . . . I'm not trying rain on your parade just provoke a little discussion. Sometimes I think we get too hung up on what caliber and what you're doing is showing that the 30's are more versatile than many give them credit for. Now, if only Jack and Elmer could get their 2c worth in.
    My comparison was with the 338 Win mag. I do not like the 338 Ultra mag my friend has one and I don't like the rebated rim. It is powerful but at least with the 300WBY mag I can kill as good as a 338win mag and shoot a lot flatter and that gives me one good cartridge if it can kill like a 338Win mag and alot of people in Alaska have and use the 338win mag for that very reason that it is a good killer. You did now rain on my party.

    300WBY mag
    150gr 3540vel eng4173 300 zero 400yds -7.7 500yds -20.9

    165gr 3350vel eng4210 300 zero 400yds -8.5 500yds – 21.4

    180gr 3250vel eng4223 300 zero 400yds -8.4 500yds – 22.4

    200gr 3060vel eng4158 300 zero 400yds -9.6 500yds – 26.2

    240gr 2750vel eng4029 300 zero 400yds -13.8 500yds - -36.4

    338Win Mag
    250gr 2700vel eng4046 300 zero 400yds -24.3 500yds - -48.9
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  12. #12
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    Clarification: I posted above, that "you should be able to make a .338RUM our of your .300Wby". That's wrong. What I intended to write was: "You should be able to make a .300RUM out of your .300Wby."

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    Clarification: I posted above, that "you should be able to make a .338RUM our of your .300Wby". That's wrong. What I intended to write was: "You should be able to make a .300RUM out of your .300Wby."
    Yes, I agree and that truly would be the case if I can get what I am trying to get out of my loads. Who knows it might all go south for all I know at this moment.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  14. #14

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer55 View Post
    Beartooth,

    I get the lighter cross canyon reasoning, but my Hornady ballistics table shows the .338 200 gr spire point zeroed for 300 yards to be only 11.6 inches low at 400 yards and -31.7 at 500. A .308 180 gr spire point is -10 at 400 and -26.9 at 500 yards. The difference is only 1 inch at 400 yards and 5 at 500. A 338 Ultra Mag and a 225 SST or IB is within an inch at 400 yards and 2 inches at 500 yards. A 338-378, now we're talking . . . . I'm not trying rain on your parade just provoke a little discussion. Sometimes I think we get too hung up on what caliber and what you're doing is showing that the 30's are more versatile than many give them credit for. Now, if only Jack and Elmer could get their 2c worth in.
    Hey Flyer55, I meant to say "you have NOT rained on my party" I put NOW I meant NOT.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  15. #15
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    .300 Wby. ballistics from factory ammo

    Weatherby 150-grain SP
    Muzzle = 3540 fps/4173 foot-pound
    100 yd = 3225 fps/3462 foot-pound. Trajectory = +1.0" (100 yards)
    200 yd = 2932 fps/2862 foot-pound. Trajectory = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2657 fps/2351 foot-pound. Trajectory = -5.2"
    400 yd = 2399 fps/1916 foot-pound. Trajectory = -15.4"
    500 yd = 2155 fps/1547 foot-pound. Trajectory = -31.8"

    The same Weatherby loading, but with a NOS Partition, is listed by the company at the same velocity and energy levels out to 100 yards, but 100fps and over 100 foot-pound of energy at 200 yards. Then at 300 yards it's listed 200 fps and foot-pound of energy out to 500 yards. Bullet drop at 500 yards = -29.7".

    Weatherby 165-grain SP
    Muzzle = 3390 fps/4210 energy
    100 yd = 3123 fps/3573 energy. Bullet = +1.0"
    200 yd = 2872 fps/3021 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2634 fps/2542 energy. Bullet = -5.3"
    400 yd = 2409 fps/2126 energy. Bullet = -15.5"
    500 yd = 2195 fps/1765 energy. Bullet = -31.8"

    Weatherby 180-grain BST
    Muzzle = 3250 fps/4223 energy
    100 yd = 3051 fps/3721 energy. Bullet = +1.1"
    200 yd = 2806 fps/3271 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2676 fps/2867 energy. Bullet = -5.4"
    400 yd = 2503 fps/2504 energy. Bullet = -15.6"
    500 yd = 2334 fps/2178 energy. Bullet = -31.4"

    Weatherby 200-grain NOS
    Muzzle = 3060 fps/4158 energy
    100 yd = 2860 fps/3631 energy. Bullet = +1.4"
    200 yd = 2638 fps/3161 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2485 fps/4741 energy. Bullet = -7.2"
    400 yd = 2308 fps/2366 energy. Bullet = -18..2"
    500 yd = 2139 fps/2032 energy. Bullet = -36.6"
    ----------
    The .300 Weatherby has impressive ballistics, just like the .300RUM, or like the .300WM loaded with Federal HE or Hornady HM.

    Perhaps in the lower-48 the .300 Weatherby is more popular than the .338WM (I don't really know), but it's not so in Alaska where shots are taken within reasonable ranges. In fact, the most popular cartridges up here are the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM. Most shooters would not be too happy about the recoil generated from a 240-grain bullet launched out of the .300 Weatherby, just because they want their rifle to shoot like a .338WM. Besides, why settle for a smaller bore just because you can load it up to near the performance of another cartridge? Why not just shoot the real thing?

    If you want to shoot a deer across a canyon, you can load a .338WM with a Federal 180 Partition at 3120 fps, or load your own TSX at 3200 fps or so, sight the rifle to hit the 100-yard mark at +1.4", which will get you to -19" at 400 yards. You can also use a Federal 225-grain TB-HE and hit the spot at -21.8" at 400 yards, or a 250-grain NOS-HE for -22.5" at 400 yards.

    The thing is that the average hunter is not concerned with energy, velocity, SD, and BC tables. Most hunters are only concerned with using the right gun/bullet combination for the game hunted, bullet placement, and taking shots within reasonable ranges.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    .300 Wby. ballistics from factory ammo

    Weatherby 150-grain SP
    Muzzle = 3540 fps/4173 foot-pound
    100 yd = 3225 fps/3462 foot-pound. Trajectory = +1.0" (100 yards)
    200 yd = 2932 fps/2862 foot-pound. Trajectory = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2657 fps/2351 foot-pound. Trajectory = -5.2"
    400 yd = 2399 fps/1916 foot-pound. Trajectory = -15.4"
    500 yd = 2155 fps/1547 foot-pound. Trajectory = -31.8"

    The same Weatherby loading, but with a NOS Partition, is listed by the company at the same velocity and energy levels out to 100 yards, but 100fps and over 100 foot-pound of energy at 200 yards. Then at 300 yards it's listed 200 fps and foot-pound of energy out to 500 yards. Bullet drop at 500 yards = -29.7".

    Weatherby 165-grain SP
    Muzzle = 3390 fps/4210 energy
    100 yd = 3123 fps/3573 energy. Bullet = +1.0"
    200 yd = 2872 fps/3021 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2634 fps/2542 energy. Bullet = -5.3"
    400 yd = 2409 fps/2126 energy. Bullet = -15.5"
    500 yd = 2195 fps/1765 energy. Bullet = -31.8"

    Weatherby 180-grain BST
    Muzzle = 3250 fps/4223 energy
    100 yd = 3051 fps/3721 energy. Bullet = +1.1"
    200 yd = 2806 fps/3271 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2676 fps/2867 energy. Bullet = -5.4"
    400 yd = 2503 fps/2504 energy. Bullet = -15.6"
    500 yd = 2334 fps/2178 energy. Bullet = -31.4"

    Weatherby 200-grain NOS
    Muzzle = 3060 fps/4158 energy
    100 yd = 2860 fps/3631 energy. Bullet = +1.4"
    200 yd = 2638 fps/3161 energy. Bullet = 0.0"
    300 yd = 2485 fps/4741 energy. Bullet = -7.2"
    400 yd = 2308 fps/2366 energy. Bullet = -18..2"
    500 yd = 2139 fps/2032 energy. Bullet = -36.6"
    ----------
    The .300 Weatherby has impressive ballistics, just like the .300RUM, or like the .300WM loaded with Federal HE or Hornady HM.

    Perhaps in the lower-48 the .300 Weatherby is more popular than the .338WM (I don't really know), but it's not so in Alaska where shots are taken within reasonable ranges. In fact, the most popular cartridges up here are the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM. Most shooters would not be too happy about the recoil generated from a 240-grain bullet launched out of the .300 Weatherby, just because they want their rifle to shoot like a .338WM. Besides, why settle for a smaller bore just because you can load it up to near the performance of another cartridge? Why not just shoot the real thing?

    If you want to shoot a deer across a canyon, you can load a .338WM with a Federal 180 Partition at 3120 fps, or load your own TSX at 3200 fps or so, sight the rifle to hit the 100-yard mark at +1.4", which will get you to -19" at 400 yards. You can also use a Federal 225-grain TB-HE and hit the spot at -21.8" at 400 yards, or a 250-grain NOS-HE for -22.5" at 400 yards.

    The thing is that the average hunter is not concerned with energy, velocity, SD, and BC tables. Most hunters are only concerned with using the right gun/bullet combination for the game hunted, bullet placement, and taking shots within reasonable ranges.
    Strong points which only proves mine my point and the 300WBy is the real thing and has been for a long time. You might hunt in alaska and I can't wait to get there and do so, but have you hunted in Africa, I have. My friend and guide in Tanzania Africa with the 300Wby and heavy loads has killed the following in his travels in Africa. Oryx, Leopard, Elephant, hippo, Lion and buffalo and long list of plains game some very far off. I have two favorite cartridges and they have served me for years and they are the 30-06 and 300WBY. I take exception to your statement, "why not just shoot the real thing" I am shooting the real thing and it is much more versatile than your 338Win Mag. and with my muzzle break the 240gr won't be a recoil problem (it would be in my Ruger #1 but not in my MK V) I know you like your 338, good but if you want a cartridge that has real versatility and can reach out and touch anything short or real far and real far is practical to me, I practice enough for that, then you might want to consider a 300WBY mag. if not just settle for a 30-06.

    Just having fun but now time to reload and say good by to this thread until I get shooting results. later had fun
    Last edited by beartooth; 05-06-2007 at 13:50.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  17. #17
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    Well, if you read some of your statements above, the reason why you want to use a 240-grain Woodleigh is to attain similar killing power as the .388WM with 250-grain bullets. My point was that it doesn't make sense to me to stretch the limits of your rifle to reach the power of another. In this case, just use a .338WM with 250-grain bullets and be done with it.

    All cartridges are designed to perform within a certain ballistics range, and that's why the .300WM is a step over the 30-06. It does not mean, however, that you can't load the .30-06 to shoot nearly as fast as the .300WM. But even so the .30-06 cannot be a .300WM relating to ballistics. Now, when you switch to another bore diameter, then the differences become even greater. If you compare your .300 Weatherby to the .300 RUM, then you are talking about apples and apples. The .300WM loaded with Federal HE and Hornady HM kicks on the hills of the .300 weatherby, too.

    It makes no difference if you or your friend have shot every game in the planet with the .300 Wby. What matters is not the caliber, since elephants and all sorts of game have been shot for many years in the past with 7mm bullets out of some of the metric and slower chamberings. Shot placement with the right bullet has a lot more to do than what caliber-rifle the bullet comes from. The .338 Sabi, which is an African .338-06 version, has been used for years to kill all African game. Handguns have been used to kill the largest African game. The .338WM has also been used to kill the same game. The minimum legal caliber, however, is the .375 H&H.

    If I wanted a cartridge to shoot far and hit hard, or close and hard, then I would switch to the .330 Dakota, .338 RUM, .340 Weatherby, .338 Lapua, or one of the .338 Lazzerini. However, like other hunters in Alaska I am not concerned with long range hunting and ballistics, just with being lucky enough to shoot a moose each year with a well-placed shot, and within a reasonable distance.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by RayfromAK View Post
    Well, if you read some of your statements above, the reason why you want to use a 240-grain Woodleigh is to attain similar killing power as the .388WM with 250-grain bullets. My point was that it doesn't make sense to me to stretch the limits of your rifle to reach the power of another. In this case, just use a .338WM with 250-grain bullets and be done with it.

    All cartridges are designed to perform within a certain ballistics range, and that's why the .300WM is a step over the 30-06. It does not mean, however, that you can't load the .30-06 to shoot nearly as fast as the .300WM. But even so the .30-06 cannot be a .300WM relating to ballistics. Now, when you switch to another bore diameter, then the differences become even greater. If you compare your .300 Weatherby to the .300 RUM, then you are talking about apples and apples. The .300WM loaded with Federal HE and Hornady HM kicks on the hills of the .300 weatherby, too.

    It makes no difference if you or your friend have shot every game in the planet with the .300 Wby. What matters is not the caliber, since elephants and all sorts of game have been shot for many years in the past with 7mm bullets out of some of the metric and slower chamberings. Shot placement with the right bullet has a lot more to do than what caliber-rifle the bullet comes from. The .338 Sabi, which is an African .338-06 version, has been used for years to kill all African game. Handguns have been used to kill the largest African game. The .338WM has also been used to kill the same game. The minimum legal caliber, however, is the .375 H&H.

    If I wanted a cartridge to shoot far and hit hard, or close and hard, then I would switch to the .330 Dakota, .338 RUM, .340 Weatherby, .338 Lapua, or one of the .338 Lazzerini. However, like other hunters in Alaska I am not concerned with long range hunting and ballistics, just with being lucky enough to shoot a moose each year with a well-placed shot, and within a reasonable distance.
    Well, I will have to say I like some of your reasoning and it is food for thought. I hope this year you get another moose, it sure was good discussing this with you. Thanks for the opinions which I do respect. Just beartooth
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  19. #19
    New member George's Avatar
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    Default 240gr. 30 cal

    bt,
    I think you're reasoning and understanding is correct about momentum and KE. Terms like "knockdown power" among many others have always struck me as nothing more than so much jargon. Momentum is intuitive and can easily be seen and understood. Kinetic energy is NOT intuitive and cannot be seen or understood easily at all.... it took the best minds in the world hundreds of years to get a grasp of it. Whether or not the 240 grain bullet out of a 30 cal will meet your intended objectives ??? will have to wait and see. If I were attempting to do what you're attempting I'd have a few of concerns from the get-go like... sharper pressure curves and greater bullet bearing surface with increased friction, rifling twist/bullet stability and basic accuracy, increased recoil, load efficiency, chamber throat length, seating depth, magazine length- but I imagine you've already considered the last three. On the plus side would be greater bullet sectional density along with a theoretically greater retained momentum with greater potential penetration. Anyways, good luck and report back... Seems like the silence is deafening when things don't work and multi-page, detailed reports follow successes. We all learn from both outcomes

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    bt,
    I think you're reasoning and understanding is correct about momentum and KE. Terms like "knockdown power" among many others have always struck me as nothing more than so much jargon. Momentum is intuitive and can easily be seen and understood. Kinetic energy is NOT intuitive and cannot be seen or understood easily at all.... it took the best minds in the world hundreds of years to get a grasp of it. Whether or not the 240 grain bullet out of a 30 cal will meet your intended objectives ??? will have to wait and see. If I were attempting to do what you're attempting I'd have a few of concerns from the get-go like... sharper pressure curves and greater bullet bearing surface with increased friction, rifling twist/bullet stability and basic accuracy, increased recoil, load efficiency, chamber throat length, seating depth, magazine length- but I imagine you've already considered the last three. On the plus side would be greater bullet sectional density along with a theoretically greater retained momentum with greater potential penetration. Anyways, good luck and report back... Seems like the silence is deafening when things don't work and multi-page, detailed reports follow successes. We all learn from both outcomes
    Very well put, very good. Yes, I have considered all of the above mention variables and I have a muzzle brake that should help with recoil, load efficiency has already been calculated and I will take care of the chamber throat length, seating depth and magazine length tomorrow but do not see any problems since I have loaded the same 240gr in my Kimber 30-06 OAL 3.311" and none of the above was a problem. The testing starts Tuesday and when I am finished determining that I can get the velocity needed without over max pressures, accuracy under an 1 1/2 I will let you know. So until then wish me luck, but I really believe from my experiences of reloading, shooting and hunting as well as developing ideas for overcoming problems in custom rifles for over 32 years, it will work, of course we will see.
    Last edited by beartooth; 05-06-2007 at 20:49.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

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