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Thread: Sig Sauer AR Platform?

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    Member powderhound's Avatar
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    Default Sig Sauer AR Platform?

    Just like the rest of America, I to am now interested in purchasing an AR. With the future of them in question, I would like to get a good one that I shall keep forever. The sig's have a great reputation with hand guns. How is the M400 AR' compare to there cOmpetition?
    Colt like all colts have there followers, is the Sig in the same league?
    They sure look nice!

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    I dont have one, but I've heard lots of good about the M400 and 516. I dont think you can go wrong with any of the well know brands. Even Ruger makes a nice AR-15.

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    Unfortunatly I have heard negative comments on the 556 lowers, and Sigs reputation for their handguns have been suffering as of late. I have not heard or read much about their AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwoods View Post
    Unfortunatly I have heard negative comments on the 556 lowers, and Sigs reputation for their handguns have been suffering as of late. I have not heard or read much about their AR.
    Want to elaborate? You have been hearing negative comments and that is it? Their handguns have been suffering as of late? What are you talking about? Or do you not even know yourself, and are just blatantly putting out false information.
    Heres a list of the Sigs I have owned at one point or another, and I will provide you with some feedback:
    225
    226
    229 DAK
    229
    556
    All great firearms, I will admit the DA trigger on the 225 is a little stiff but that is all. All the Sigs I have owned have shot and functioned exceptionally.
    As for the Sig 556 I personally did not care for the red dot sight it came with but that did not bother me I just took it off. The piston system is very nice and allows for it to be one of the few "AR's" that allows for a folding stock.
    If you go with a Sig you will not be upset.

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    I have a collection of Sig rifle (and handguns) and can cover some of the strong points. Sig has four different models of these rifles.
    The M400 is a more or less Mil-spec rifle. It is standard Stoner gas system and will use any parts that fit other AR's. This rifle is there base model, but has a patrol rifle version that has a quad rail and sights. The basic M400 was about $950 around here, pre-election pricing, and at such was a very good bargain.
    The 556 gun is model named in the sequence of the original Swiss 550 series of rifle. The 550 is a selective fire military weapon and only a very few were ever imported pre 1987. The semi only version of that rifle is the 551 (the rifle the Swiss folks take home after military service).
    Sig sells a 551 A1 here in the U.S today and is about $2200 a copy. It does not take AR mags.

    The 556 is a lookalike version of the 551 except it has different stock and the lower is milled aluminum and takes standard AR mags.
    This 556 is the most popular of their rifles and is about $1100 and a good buy. It is made in 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 (556R). All the 55x series of rifles use the same operating system, not Stoner but Kalasnikov. They are AK operating system with some bonafide improvements that allow easier stripping and disassembly and the lower is a milled T-6 aluminum and takes AR mags. The bolt looks an exact duplicate of the AK's. The piston, op-rod and spring are one captive unit. This unit and the gas tube snaps on and off quickly and easily. There is a two pos gas valve adjustment, normal and adverse. The 556 has a folding stock. The earliest versions had a adapter on the but to take AR six pos stocks, then they went to the folding with two pos adjustment but now they are all just polymer copy of the Swiss style folding stock. They take no AR parts except the magazine and muzzle device but I can tell you the accuracy of these rifles in 5.56 is very good with 1.5" groups and less very common.
    The last model is the 516/716 series of rifles (5.56 vs 7.62). These are piston driven with a system very similar to LWRC but the piston gas valve and rod are very accessible, out the front. There is a four pos gas valve adjustment but two are for surpressed fire, basically one is shut off for single shot or grenade launching or don't drop any brass mode. The other two are normal and adverse which sends a stronger gas pulse to operate the action.This is an excellent rifle and the most accurate carbine of type I've ever fired. ( I have 716 308 version.) These guns take standard AR mags (516) and the new polymer (AR 10A, Stoner 25, DPMS, POF mags) on the 716. I bought my 716 for $1750. There rare then but now I see even Cabela's sold out at $2495 for the 716 and $2295 for the 516. I brought this 716 home and after a shoot and clean and with some Black Hills match I shot 3/4" groups. I love this thing. It is truly a class act of a rifle with lots of goodies installed that most will like.

    Of all my Sig rifles, the 551 A1, 716, 556, 556 R, and M400 patrol the one I like best is the 716 but the A1 is true Swiss looker and really cool.

    Anyway, I hope this helps with your decision. Enjoy your rifle.
    Mike
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    "The rifle brought man out of the mud". Cooper

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    The M400 is equal to Colt in just about every way. Very well built and priced rifle. I own Colt 6920's myself, but I would buy a M400 and trust my life to it in a heartbeat.

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    I am going to have to go against the grain here.


    First of all, I love my Sig Equinox 229. Would buy another Sig in a heart beat.


    But....

    When reading about Sig AR's online recently, I found a few threads where folks were having FTF, FTE, etc..

    Flash forward a few weeks, my buddy buys a 400 and 516. Everyone going crazy lately for AR's, we figured what the hell, we got six ourself


    During a one day class with a special forces instructor from Ft Bragg, we have 4 guys, 4 guns, shot 1300 rounds.


    The Sig 400 failed about 3-4 times out of 30 ALL DAY till I poured SAE 30 motor oil in it. Literally, in it. Read in one of the earlier forum threads about Sig customer service telling the guy to run a thicker grease, saying Rem Oil wasn't good enough. Anyway, after pouring motor oil in the darn thing, it ran better. With some more serious gun lube, grease, and some more break in, hope this gun is good to go. My buddy bought it for his dad. Sucked to see him cussing all day.


    The Sig 516 failed about 10-15 times on this day. It also benefited from having SAE 30 poured in it. What the hell? My buddy cleaned and oiled both of these brand new Sigs before the class that day. He knows guns well, I am sure he cleaned and oiled them appropriately. However he had some major issues getting these two Sigs to run.



    I however was shooting my Barnes Precision AR-15. This gun is the friggin bee's knees. Want a bad azz AR, check them out. Andrew Barnes makes almost all the parts in house. Barrels are Montana Rifle stainless. Much nicer gun than the typical AR's, DPMS, Bushmaster, Olypmia, Windham, etc.. The Barnes Precision AR-15's are essentially $1400 guns that are comparable to guns costing $2000+. Read up on them and you will see what I am getting at. Call and talk to Andrew Barnes himself. Spoke with him twice recently. Great guy. Made here in NC, they got a dealer in AK. Forget what town, but it is on the Barnes Precision site under dealers. I picked up a second Barnes Precision today.









    They come packaged like this. Pmag, a few magpul rail attachments, sight tool for flip ups, hard case, etc...




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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danattherock View Post
    I am going to have to go against the grain here.


    First of all, I love my Sig Equinox 229. Would buy another Sig in a heart beat.


    But....

    When reading about Sig AR's online recently, I found a few threads where folks were having FTF, FTE, etc..

    Flash forward a few weeks, my buddy buys a 400 and 516. Everyone going crazy lately for AR's, we figured what the hell, we got six ourself


    During a one day class with a special forces instructor from Ft Bragg, we have 4 guys, 4 guns, shot 1300 rounds.


    The Sig 400 failed about 3-4 times out of 30 ALL DAY till I poured SAE 30 motor oil in it. Literally, in it. Read in one of the earlier forum threads about Sig customer service telling the guy to run a thicker grease, saying Rem Oil wasn't good enough. Anyway, after pouring motor oil in the darn thing, it ran better. With some more serious gun lube, grease, and some more break in, hope this gun is good to go. My buddy bought it for his dad. Sucked to see him cussing all day.


    The Sig 516 failed about 10-15 times on this day. It also benefited from having SAE 30 poured in it. What the hell? My buddy cleaned and oiled both of these brand new Sigs before the class that day. He knows guns well, I am sure he cleaned and oiled them appropriately. However he had some major issues getting these two Sigs to run.



    I however was shooting my Barnes Precision AR-15. This gun is the friggin bee's knees. Want a bad azz AR, check them out. Andrew Barnes makes almost all the parts in house. Barrels are Montana Rifle stainless. Much nicer gun than the typical AR's, DPMS, Bushmaster, Olypmia, Windham, etc.. The Barnes Precision AR-15's are essentially $1400 guns that are comparable to guns costing $2000+. Read up on them and you will see what I am getting at. Call and talk to Andrew Barnes himself. Spoke with him twice recently. Great guy. Made here in NC, they got a dealer in AK. Forget what town, but it is on the Barnes Precision site under dealers. I picked up a second Barnes Precision today.









    They come packaged like this. Pmag, a few magpul rail attachments, sight tool for flip ups, hard case, etc...



    I have seen the same thing online and the cause has mostly been the protective packing material the Sigs (and others) are shipped with. It's like a cosmoline type substance, but thin and not cosmoline. Regardless, do you know if your friend field stripped his rifle, soaked the BCG small parts in solvent, lubed and reassembled? Colts come the same way FWIW. The bolt and BCG actually feel sticky out of the box and won't run 300 rounds without a proper cleaning and lubing before hand. Not an indictment on your friend, just asking to assemble anectdotal evidence and to serve as a training lesson for others.

    DO NOT go from Wal-Mart to the range. Go home and clean your gun properly first.


  9. #9
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    He field stripped the guns and cleaned them the morning before we shot. That was part of the class. We broke the guns down and put them back together, to include bolt carriage group, etc... My buddy is a bit of a gun nut, IDPA, travels far away as Missouri shooting in events on state level. He cleaned and oiled the guns before shooting. He bought the Sig 516 for himself and the 400 for his old man. They also bought a Barnes Precision each after that day at the range. I bought a Barnes Precision last month and picked up a second today. Wanted to be sure my 12 week old son (Danattherock III) will have an AR-15 one day.


    Won't post the links here, but anyone interested can Google the following for many threads like I read recently.


    Google...

    Sig 516 jams



    -Dan

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    I checked out their website and saw the only AK dealer in North Pole. How do you get one in Anchorage?
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    Ordered the CBQ MOE model a couple weeks ago via their website. I notice it says backorder now.

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    Well, since Dan is turning this into a promo thread I guess I will too... for lube, Fireclean (www.cleanergun.com) is your answer to sticky guns. No-toxic and it loosens carbon like nothing I have tried. My AR's wipe clean with a rag after shooting. Good stuff. Seems expensive when, but I only use about 6 drops every 500 rounds. A bottle last forever.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Since you asked, I've seen both good and bad ones. (sold them for the last few years) The standard 400 series usually runs pretty good out of the box, provided you treat them like an AR. Clean them before hitting the range the first time, and run them wet. I usually run mobil 1 simply because its a good lube, stays put, and keeps a lot of the crud suspended so its less cleaning. A lot of the double feeds people get are crappy mags with a bad follower or feed lip geometry (banged up, etc)

    The piston setups (700 series I think) have been a little goofier out of the box. misaligned rails and the like.

    Don't get me wrong though, the fit and finish are pretty dang nice. I already have my rifles. Only reason I don't own a 400. Heck, If I could just get the lower I'd be happy. Ambi controls and push button swivels built in.

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mkay View Post
    I checked out their website and saw the only AK dealer in North Pole. How do you get one in Anchorage?

    I would suspect having it ordered through the dealer in North Pole then shipped to the local FFL of your choice would suffice.



    Didn't intend to make this a promo thread, but agree it turned that way in my post. Truth is, I just had a very firm opinion about the OP's question as I was searching for a Sig 516 the other week till I ran across some bad reports online. With that said, don't mean the guns ain't no good. Along with running them wet (or full of SAE30 in our case) and a good break in period, they may be great guns. My Sig 229 equinox is my favorite pistol, which is saying something as I own some nice pistols. Just a fantastic gun, the one I keep at the bedside. However, the quirks of the Sig AR's got me looking elsewhere. That is when I heard about Barnes Precision. After 500-600 rounds of varying ammo, the gun is 100% flawless. And accurate? Holy shet, this thing is a shooter. With that, along with my excitement about picking up a second Barnes Precision AR yesterday, couldn't help but to promo it a bit. They are exceptional AR-15's and the guy that makes them is a solid dude.




    -Dan

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    After reading this thread last night I checked out the Barnes Precision website and saw that the dealer for Ak is in North Pole. Went to their website and the don't list Barnes Precision as one of the brands that they rep. Thought that was kinda weird if they have exclusive rights for the state. Maybe I just missed it but will dig into this more on Monday with some phone calls. Thanks Dan for the heads up on Barnes Precision and thanks AKDoug for the Fireclean plug - just ordered some to try out.

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Sure thing man. They probably don't sell enough Barnes Precision AR-15's to advertise it much up your way. Andrew Barnes has been in business a while, 10-15 years as I recall. But he got his start machining parts for other AR "manufacturers" (assemblers). He still machines parts for half dozen or so well known AR manufacturers. He then started making his own guns. These guns are 100% made and assembled in the US, right here near Raleigh,NC in a small town Apex. These are not your typical AR-15's. Putting Burris Signature 6-24 on one tomorrow and sighting in and shooting at a 500 yard range Tuesday. Eager to see the long range potential of these Barnes rifles. They are VERY accurate. Some magazine review I ran across stated "1/2 MOA out the box". I won't be surprised if this proves to be true.




    -Dan

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    I don't pay much attention to comments of failures of firearms on the net. I believe they happen but almost always it seems the poster has an axe to grind and thus exaggerate or inflate the problems. I'm sure every gun maker has a problem gun now and then and if it is your only sample you would naturally take a dim view. I only speak of my own personal experience or of issues I've observed and then only when I understand why. I shoot the Sig 556 rifle in three gun matches about 8 mos of the year. About 200 rounds every week I run thru this rifle. It just flat works and requires no more, and generally less maintenance that Stoner system guns. I spent half my life in the Army with an M 16 or M 4 in my hands. I know the rifle well and understand its strong and weak points. I just will not ever say a Sig 556 is a lesser rifle.
    Mike
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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Generally I agree about online rants and complaints. Usually user error or an agenda. However, I saw the two Sigs FTF, FTE, about 60 times in one day of shooting. Both were remedied with the info I had got on the other forum threads. We literally poured motor oil into the guns. Google Sig 516 jams if you want a bunch to choose from. This is more than a bad lemon kind of issue with Sig AR's. As I said, hopefully running it wet and an ample break in period will be the cure. Otherwise, my buddy has $3000 worth of paper weights.

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    I don't google. I'm not saying it didn't happen but there are no pertinent details about gas valve settings or ninclement uncleaned, etc. I have seen failures in new 516 guns that either were still factory lubed and we know how that is, but with all these the gas valve change made them work. Also where are we pouring oil? Around the bolt? Inside the carrier? There really is no friction in there unless the bolt has rings, which it should not for piston op. We've all heard the term, "nothing wrong with that gun that a quart of 30 wt wouldn't fix". These include AR's and 1911's and very few gun designs will run completely dry but the looser the gun the dryer it runs. The 516/716 are completely different from a 551/556 system and the potential problems are quite different. My 551/556's have never, yes I said never, failed to feed, fire or function and they have been run dry. That is an AK system. I have several piston operated rifles, LWRC, Hogan,POF and I'm told where ever I go that they aren't any good. But when I win the match with a piston gun that runs clean throughout, there are some second looks.
    I just do not think it is a fair evaluation of the Sigs in general when we only say they don't work. Any makers guns could have a problem in an individual gun and I've seen them in LMT, DD and Larue.
    Mike
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    "The rifle brought man out of the mud". Cooper

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    I just do not think it is a fair evaluation of the Sigs in general when we only say they don't work. Any makers guns could have a problem in an individual gun and I've seen them in LMT, DD and Larue.

    I agree completely of course. Problem is, I have only seen two Sig AR-15's and neither worked reliably. That is very specifically what I was talking about. As I said in my first post, I am a big fan of Sig in general. However, after what I have seen and read, I will buy AR's from someone else.




    -Dan

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