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Thread: Angle Casting

  1. #1
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    Default Angle Casting

    Just thought I would ask how others here teach this, specifically the 1:30 & 10:30 casts. What Drills do you use?, the wagon wheel or something different?
    Jesse
    HR SHR JR's Gunny Dog "Ermey"
    SR JR's Marsh Mangling Mindy
    SR JR's LNR Thicket Thrashing Trixie

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    I use wagon wheel for heeling and turning drill , then baseball to do what you are doing. It depends where you are in your handling. By now your dog should be sitting on a whistle so you can bring them back without burning. It's too tight an area to be causing hot spots. And you are confident he is always turning left to your left cast and right to your right cast , right back and left back.If you have 12,3,and 9 O'clock down solid Gonia and DeVos used to do a couple of things with and without anything in the way(logs, bushes, water). Visually you want something behind the angle sight blind. Just think how you can walk across a field in a straight line looking at a distant object like a telephone pole, bright building or other distinct object. Otherwise you'd drift all over. Plant the angle sight blind a little inside the 9,12,3 points or pick them up all together. I haven't trained it in a while but the big thing is when the dog turns he immediately has some confidence about where he is going. You may have to pick up any other bumpers and just have the 10:30 position. You may have to move close. Also check yourself. Stand in front of a mirror and watch your arms. You want to present a clear silhouette. Make it simple simple simple. I've seen too many dogs pinged around a field confused and messing up the entire day. Once he's going directly to the 10:30 you can do the 1:30 same thing. My preference then is to add the straight back putting the Back WAY back. If there is confusion move up and cast closer, stop, start over. Eventually add in the 90 degree overs but always alternate with a back and marks off the line to keep the momentum and balance. Others may not agree but collar correction here is going to cause a lot of issues and no-gos. Gonia used the same field over and over to create confidence then moved to other locations. And be patient. Just because you have a success one day you may have a complete screwup the next . Create success first and finish with success even if you have to simplify. If that makes any sense at all.

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    Jesse, rather than doing a drill for this and a drill for that, I would suggest you follow a real retriever training program. People winging it with their first few dogs leave some pretty big holes in the dog's education. Angle backs are pretty easy to teach a dog in a yard type enviornment. But, angles have to fit in to the larger picture of training a retriever. There will be some no's in teaching angle backs and your dog will need to have the experience of knowing what to do after being told, "No." No, can be fairly devastating for some dogs learning casting. Training a retriever is like teaching kids, they can't do long division before they learn adding, subtraction and multiplication. The steps have to follow a sequence.

    I like, "Total Retriever Training," by Mike Lardy. It's a video program, and worth the $150 price tag IMO. http://www.ybsmedia.com/index.php?pa...mart&Itemid=66

    You will be ahead of the game in the long run if you follow a sequenced training program going from step A to step B and so on, rather than winging it on your own trying to come up with a drill to fill this hole or that hole.

  4. #4

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    Very well said Howard!! The good news for you Jesse is that you are a member of MSGDA and you can check it out from our library and save the $150!!

  5. #5

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    Good advise from Linda and Howard.
    Jesse and I talked a bit about this on the phone. He realizes that he needs to take a few steps back and correct some "holes" in the program that were missed. From there Jesse will build forward again.
    Now to answer the question directly. Say with a dog that is solid with obedience and up to snuff in the training flow chart build up to this point.
    My retrievers at this point would be familiar with double T. Understanding left back ,right back, left over, right over and whistle sits.
    Now select a sufficient area flat enough so your dog can see your bumper piles. All white or black and white. Set up your basic T pattern. I like at least 30 paces from the base line to each of my overs. 20 to 25 for my back pile. Then set your angle back piles.
    Start by lining your dog to each pile as a lining drill from the apex. For example: left over, left angle back then direct back. Then right over then right angle back.
    Then you sit your dog at the apex facing towards you. Cast left over, then left angle back then left direct back. Then repeat on the other side. This is a no pressure drill. Just a simple "no here" if they mess up by going to the wrong pile. Properly casting is important as well . If you aren't casting properly you are giving your dog mixed signals. If your dog gets really confused move closer to the pile you desire or keep a bumper in your back pocket to throw towards the pile you desire. Do not flip flop in the order. The way I run this helps the dogs to really learn the difference between left over, left angle, left back. Then right over, right angle then right back. Some dogs just starting out will have difficulty rotating to there weak side. Just as we are right or left handed. Dogs are the same. Some will rotate real tight o ne direction but flare wide when rotated the other. Some finess will be needed to tighten those turns up and stop the flare.
    Have fun and reward when you get success. Remember always leave something in it for the dog.

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    As always, good advice so far. I'll add and emphasize a few things.
    1- Make sure the basics are solid as described for obedience, sit on a whistle, and "T".
    2- Keep it fun. NO PRESSURE!
    3- Start close, work close. Build success before distance.
    4- Know what you look like when you cast. I start each cast in "prayer", hands to my chest, feet close together, not more than shoulder width apart. Everything is balanced, I give nothing away before I'm ready to cast. How much you use your feet to enhance the cast depends on the situation, distance, dog, etc. A little sideways body movement can have a big impact. When I give a "back" my hand comes straight up, right past my cheek, brushing my ear, straight overhead. An angle back runs through and out my shoulder. An over extends below the armpit. Depending on the over, or the angle, I may use sideways motion with my body.
    5- When teaching casts, I do not stop the dog enroute unless there is a problem. I let them take the cast and make the retrieve. They already have enough to think about that you don't add in more confusion.
    It is pretty amazing to have a dog that is quivering with anticipation, waiting for your cast, then spinning away while the dirt (or snow) flies. If the dog is not dynamic, engaged, and excited, be careful about pressure.
    Now go have fun,
    ARR

  7. #7
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    It depends where you are in your handling. By now your dog should be sitting on a whistle so you can bring them back without burning. It's too tight an area to be causing hot spots. And you are confident he is always turning left to your left cast and right to your right cast , right back and left back.
    Linda, im looking ahead a little bit at this point. Wasnt getting a clean left and right back cast so im back to doing three handed casting till im comfortable he has it under control.

    Visually you want something behind the angle sight blind. Just think how you can walk across a field in a straight line looking at a distant object like a telephone pole, bright building or other distinct object. Otherwise you'd drift all over. Plant the angle sight blind a little inside the 9,12,3 points or pick them up all together.
    This is what I was after, as I was afraid the wagon wheel might be bit confusing to the dog. angle sight blind im assuming is what dobb's y-drill is all about either teach the 1:30 first or the 10:30 and work to the other side slowly
    Jesse
    HR SHR JR's Gunny Dog "Ermey"
    SR JR's Marsh Mangling Mindy
    SR JR's LNR Thicket Thrashing Trixie

  8. #8
    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Jesse, rather than doing a drill for this and a drill for that, I would suggest you follow a real retriever training program. People winging it with their first few dogs leave some pretty big holes in the dog's education.
    I like, "Total Retriever Training," by Mike Lardy. It's a video program, and worth the $150 price tag IMO.
    You will be ahead of the game in the long run if you follow a sequenced training program going from step A to step B and so on, rather than winging it on your own trying to come up with a drill to fill this hole or that hole.
    Very well said Howard!! The good news for you Jesse is that you are a member of MSGDA and you can check it out from our library and save the $150!!
    Howard, I dont have the Lardy system, though I have been meaning to take a look at it as it has come recommended by many folks. I will probably take the advice of MSGDA and borrow it from the library first. I have been following another system and just seemed to me that the wagon wheel might be more confusing to teach the angle casts. I was looking a bit ahead as im currently trying to fix a hole I created not the system im using's fault just didnt get the left and right back casts ingrained well enough. Gotten to the point where i have to write everything down and try to plan ahead a bit as my schedule does get a bit out of whack with working out of town regularly causing breaks in my training which causes me to miss steps! Not as big a problem in the winter months thankfully, so im trying to make up for lost time at this point and get Ermey in shape before April.
    Jesse
    HR SHR JR's Gunny Dog "Ermey"
    SR JR's Marsh Mangling Mindy
    SR JR's LNR Thicket Thrashing Trixie

  9. #9
    Member thelast2's Avatar
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    Jesse and I talked a bit about this on the phone. He realizes that he needs to take a few steps back and correct some "holes" in the program that were missed. From there Jesse will build forward again.
    Now to answer the question directly. Say with a dog that is solid with obedience and up to snuff in the training flow chart build up to this point.
    My retrievers at this point would be familiar with double T. Understanding left back ,right back, left over, right over and whistle sits.
    Thanks Baron, hoping to be back on track in 10-14 days will see how it turns out. having already been through the t and tt work, understands overs, back and whistle sits going and coming back, just have to get left and right back casts ingrained into his mind before going any further! Hopefully wont have to spend a lot of time going back thru it. will see how it works out. crawl, walk.... run. The weather stays good and road isnt an impassable sheet of ice, hope to be out everyday this week working on it.


    When teaching casts, I do not stop the dog enroute unless there is a problem. I let them take the cast and make the retrieve. They already have enough to think about that you don't add in more confusion.
    It is pretty amazing to have a dog that is quivering with anticipation, waiting for your cast, then spinning away while the dirt (or snow) flies. If the dog is not dynamic, engaged, and excited, be careful about pressure.
    Now go have fun,
    ARR
    Thanks for the advice ARR pressure at this point seems to be the worse thing for the dog as seems the dog already less than enthusiastic or more likely overthinking the work at hand lmao.....
    Jesse
    HR SHR JR's Gunny Dog "Ermey"
    SR JR's Marsh Mangling Mindy
    SR JR's LNR Thicket Thrashing Trixie

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    I'm a little confused at the reference to "wagon wheel". For me, wagon wheel is a lining drill. The drill gets tougher the better the dog lines. I am always the "hub", the spokes are the lines. Over time our goal is to get the lines closer together, and longer in length.
    When I teach "simple baseball" or "t", I use thrown bumpers to teach the line to teach casting. The dog is at the apex, or center, I throw to the appropriate pile or location, then I make the cast. If the dog struggles to take the cast to the appropriate pile (normally caused by handler error and not ensuring a solid baste) I simplify by either getting rid of extra piles, and/or shortening that line. Once successful, I then keep that cast distant short. I'll build success and not change anything until I am sure I could bet in Vegas that the dog will do it right.
    Casting and lining should be fun for you too. You can't expect the dog to get amped if you aren't enjoying yourself. Get excited. Sound like it. Act like it. If you have to make a correction, do it, be done, get out, and move forward. Find success and end on a positive note.
    ARR

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak River Rat View Post
    I'm a little confused at the reference to "wagon wheel". For me, wagon wheel is a lining drill. The drill gets tougher the better the dog lines. I am always the "hub", the spokes are the lines.
    ARR
    Yeah, you are correct I should have said, some form of the wagon wheel one in which the handler lines himself up with one of the so called spokes and handles all the casts from the apex and not rotating.
    Jesse
    HR SHR JR's Gunny Dog "Ermey"
    SR JR's Marsh Mangling Mindy
    SR JR's LNR Thicket Thrashing Trixie

  12. #12

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    The drill I described from the folks I learned from is called a 5 handed casting drill. Where you leave the dog at the apex or hub and you cast them to the pile. It is simply a larger scale T pattern with angle backs put in.

    Eventually I build my dogs up to an 8 handed casting drill. Where you have an additional angle IN left and right. Plus a straight in.

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