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Thread: Is ESSN a bad business financially?

  1. #1
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    Default Is ESSN a bad business financially?

    Ran across this article in the ADN this morning: http://www.adn.com/2013/01/01/273986...s-for-the.html It is an interesting story about the ESSNs fighting to keep their nets in the water.

    An aspect that of the story that caught my attention was at the very end: " The family's fishing business lost money in 2011 and 2012, and Chris said it has only made money in two out of the five years they've had their sites. The family said that is typical of fishing in the Inlet."

    Chris apparently depend on the oil industry to support his family: "You've got your highs and lows, that's why we went to the Slope and that's why I went to sea and I've never been one to depend on just fishing as an income just to carry me on from year to year,"

    My question is: "Is ESSNing really that bad of business/ financial deal?"

    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Default

    This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management. This has nothing to do with fisheries management.

    Maybe repetition will kill a troll?
    "The North wind is cold no matter what direction it's blowing"

  3. #3
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    Default economic considerations...

    The relevance is the economic considerations.

    In case you have missed it, there has been quite a bit of discussion and a lot of money spent on studies to determine the economic impacts of sockeye allocation / resource allocation and fisheries management: sport vs commercial etc.


    Sorry - but like it or lump it- this thread is certainly in line with past threads and discussions in this forum.

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    Maybe repetition will kill a troll?[/QUOTE
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Angry

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    Default

    I'm not an expert on the economic viability of living in Alaska, but it seems to me that the up's and down's of resource extraction (including fish) is sorta normal in the Great Land. There are booms and busts, even with sockeye. In some years, fishing is great and so is the market for fish. So life is great. At other times, niether is profitable. So Alaska residents look elsewhere to make ends meet. Perhaps it's oil, or mining, or timber, or tourism, or whatever. They seem to understand that nobody gives them anything. They have to be resourceful, adaptable, and flexible to live in the Great Land, particulary in the rural areas. That's what makes Alaska what it is, and it's what makes Alaska residents........ Unique. And they wouldn't want it any other way.

    So fishing for sockeye is niether a good business nor a bad business. It's just an opportunity to help support the economic viability of Alaska residents (for the most part).

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    Wink Drone attack . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohoangler View Post
    . . fishing for sockeye is niether a good business nor a bad business. It's just an opportunity to help support the economic viability of Alaska residents . .

    Right on, Cohoangler . . . . . +1 . . .


    But what this thread really is, I suspect, is the Pentagon's testing of a new form of drone attack . . pick a target for destruction and drone on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it . . . ad nauseam . .


    Hey, cheaper than missiles . .

  7. #7

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    Groundhog Day all over again....

    Since you've made it abundantly clear that the seafood industry is bad for a host of reasons, is it really necessary post this in the form of a question, and do we really have to keep pretending that you haven't already made up your mind about the seafood industry?

    In the interest of saving time, I propose we skip the pages of dialogue and go straight to your own pre-determined and ill-conceived conclusions: the seafood industry is “vulgar and vile, disgusting, insulting, demeaning, greedy, slave wages, manipulative, embarrassing, slave wages....” and worse.

    There, we all just saved like 10 pages of typing and multi-quoting and hyperlinking to out-of-context articles that are at best loosely related to the topic.

    Now, let's go out and do something productive with our time saved rather than do this whole song and dance again.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by AKJOB View Post
    Groundhog Day all over again....

    Since you've made it abundantly clear that the seafood industry is bad for a host of reasons, is it really necessary post this in the form of a question, and do we really have to keep pretending that you haven't already made up your mind about the seafood industry?

    In the interest of saving time, I propose we skip the pages of dialogue and go straight to your own pre-determined and ill-conceived conclusions: the seafood industry is “vulgar and vile, disgusting, insulting, demeaning, greedy, slave wages, manipulative, embarrassing, slave wages....” and worse.

    There, we all just saved like 10 pages of typing and multi-quoting and hyperlinking to out-of-context articles that are at best loosely related to the topic.

    Now, let's go out and do something productive with our time saved rather than do this whole song and dance again.



    It's very possible that we're dealing with some form of dementia here . . seriously . .

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    Default

    Fixation? Obsession? Deep seated Hatred? Jealousy?
    Can't tell which... maybe all the above.
    Please find another whipping boy and leave these folks alone to do what they have done for nearly a century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Fixation? Obsession? Deep seated Hatred? Jealousy?
    Can't tell which... maybe all the above.
    tv, I was wondering the same thing as sayak and thinking the word "troll" is close but doesn't quite fit what you've been doing here...over and over again. It's certainly obsessive, perhaps pathological.
    Art.
    "Fishing relaxes me. It's like yoga, except I still get to kill something." --Ron Swanson

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    Default just curious

    Just curious - they were all upset because they couldn't fish, and then they say they didn't make any money most of the time anyway!

    Just seems rather odd to me. Hoping someone could explain the financial dealings better -do they tons of money some years to make up for the losses or what.

    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Fixation? Obsession? Deep seated Hatred? Jealousy?
    Can't tell which... maybe all the above.
    Please find another whipping boy and leave these folks alone to do what they have done for nearly a century.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Fixation? Obsession? Deep seated Hatred? Jealousy?
    Can't tell which... maybe all the above.
    Please find another whipping boy and leave these folks alone to do what they have done for nearly a century.
    Amen........
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Default

    tvfinak has a rep count of Glorious Beacon of Light. You guys ought to be bowing to him rather than needling him.

  14. #14

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    TV,

    So, if I understand you correctly, you would like a business owner to explain to you why their limited, niche market is profitible. I mean, really break it down and defend it, explaining why it's such a good business to be in and everyone should want to do it. Yeah, you obviously know nothing about owning a business.

    At this point I was thinking of bringing up the number of Alaskans who have paid for college (and got in great physical shape in the process) through commercial fishing, but that would only seem relevant to those of us who have or desire an education.

    You obviously value, or at least tolerate, the oil industry. How do you feel about the environmentalist groups who lobby their lies and distortions about the oil industry in order to destroy it? Personally, I think that their lack common sense has drawn them to a fool's errand, and the lack of anything meaningful in their life gives them time to pursue this destructive goal. In the event they do see the hypocrisy of their ways, their lack of character leaves them with no remorse.

    Ok I'm done. I think I'll just ignore you now and go hang out with my kids. Unless of course you would really like to know more about this industry. I know many setnetters who would be glad to take you out and show you more about our fishery next summer. Who knows, unlike your trips to the upper river, you may actually catch a fish! I must warn you though, it's a little dangerous... My 4 year old gets scared when the fish flop... and of course you will have to flip the bird when they do their mandatory out-of-trim daily pass to kill dipnetters with their boat wakes. They all do that.

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    Default Is ESSN a bad business financially?

    TV- my family has been farming in the mat-su since 1977, and it doesn't make much for money compared to the expenses, I have little doubt that when you consider the total capital invested versus the return, we're possibly in the red on the whole. In strictly economic terms, it's likely a negative return on investment.

    This doesn't make the food produced any less delicious, or the lifestyle any less satisfying or crucial to our community.

    How does your crude oil taste?

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    Lightbulb

    To whom it may concern:


    One is wasting one's breath to try to reason with those who hate Alaska's commercial fisheries and the "friggin' gill-nets" because their hatred is the product of envy. One simply cannot reason with envy. Envy is not remedied by reason. Envy, the most corrosive of human emotions, is only and ultimately remedied by love.


    First, the "friggin' gill-net" complaint: These people are whining over less than 20 percent of late-run, Kenai kings, nothing more. Nor would it make any difference if the percentage were 10 percent or five percent or even one percent. These people want it all — 100 percent, and they envy anyone and any thing that takes what they want. One cannot argue with envy.


    Second, the "I can't catch my fish when I want and where I want/greedy commercial fishermen/don't pay their fair share" complaint: This too is nothing more than envy — my way or the highway, all for me. One cannot argue with envy.


    One cannot refute envy. The best one can hope for when confronted by envy is to show envy for what it is.



    Because envy is ever-present, unappeasable, powerful when aroused, and highly destructive, a society’s "civilizing power of achievement" depends on how well it controls envy. Unfortunately, several forces in modern life are turning envy loose. Politicians find pandering to envy a tempting path to power. Egalitarian and socialist theories appeal to envy and give it intellectual legitimacy. And since World War II, social sanctions against envy have crumbled. "This public self-justification of envy is something entirely new. In this sense it is possible to speak of an age of envy."

    Most attempts at constructing a socialist or egalitarian utopia, Schoeck argues, seek to remove envy’s evil effects by removing its targets, so that the envious have nothing to envy. But because envy creates its own targets regardless of how equal people are, these efforts are doomed to fail. Moreover, they neglect envy’s positive social role.


    "We are thus confronted by an antimony, an irreconcilable contradiction: Envy is an extremely anti-social and destructive emotional state, but it is, at the same time, the most completely socially oriented. And without universal consideration of at least a potential or imaginary envy in others, there could not be the automatic social controls upon which all association is based. We need envy for our existence, though no society that hopes to endure can afford to raise it to a value principle or to an institution.


    Now, the twentieth century has gone further toward the liberation of the envious man, and toward raising envy to an abstract social principle, than any previous society since the primitive level, because it has taken seriously several ideologies of which envy is the source and which it feeds in precisely the degree to which those ideologies raise false hopes of an ultimate envy-free society. And in the twentieth century, too, for the first time, certain societies have grown rich enough to nourish the illusion that they can afford the luxury of buying the good will of the envious at ever steeper prices."

    —from a review of "Envy" by Helmut Schoeck

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    Default

    I know what Tv is trying to here, but I will answer anyways. There are many variables in play to make setnetting successful. Skill, experience,location, and sometimes dumb luck are all factors that make an operation successful. Not trying to knock the family in the article, but from the sounds of the article, they are very new to setnetting on the east side. Its not just as simple as putting a net in the water. An experienced fisherman knows when and where to put a net in the waters. Tides and wind factor into this as well as where the fish are running. Some years they run the beach, some years they run on the outside, or anywhere in between. Being new to ESSN, did the family buy any good sites? My guess would be that they didn't get as good of sites as others might have. There are prime sites on the east side, and most of the fisherman aren't going to be selling those. If you had 10 oilwells, would you sell your best producer? Some years, bad weather can really hamper setnetters. If they can't safely get their skiffs off the beach, then they can't fish. Some years, they fish are running thick, the weather is great, and business is good. IMO, ESSN isn't a good business to just get started in, but the families that have been doing it for generations are dialed in and can make a good profit. Some have made millions, and some make enough money in a couple months to not have to work the rest of the year, without starving to death. By the way TV, your question has absolutely nothing to do with fisheries management, you are just trying to take another jab at the industry.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by hoose35 View Post
    I know what Tv is trying to here, . . By the way TV, your question has absolutely nothing to do with fisheries management, you are just trying to take another jab at the industry.

    Who knew? . . . . .

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    These people are whining over less than 20 percent of late-run, Kenai kings, nothing more.
    I think "less than 20 percent of late-run Kenai kings" is a bit misleading. Typical sustainable exploitation rates for king salmon are 40-50%, meaning at least 50% of the run is needed for escapement. So the commercial harvest is probably closer to 30-35% of the harvestable surplus. Ultimately, there just isn't enough kings lately to support historical harvest numbers of king salmon by all user groups. So decisions will need to be made on reducing harvest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by commfish View Post
    I think "less than 20 percent of late-run Kenai kings" is a bit misleading. Typical sustainable exploitation rates for king salmon are 40-50%, meaning at least 50% of the run is needed for escapement. So the commercial harvest is probably closer to 30-35% of the harvestable surplus. Ultimately, there just isn't enough kings lately to support historical harvest numbers of king salmon by all user groups. So decisions will need to be made on reducing harvest.

    Study traces salmon stocks
    Biologists document genetics of setnet king harvest

    A genetic analysis of chinook salmon caught in the Upper Cook Inlet east side setnet fishery showed more than 25 percent of the harvest typically attributed to the Kenai River actually returning to the Kasilof River.

    The new information means estimates of the percentage of the late run Kenai River harvested by the setnet fishery — usually between 17-19 percent according a Fish and Game researcher — will drop.

    . . . . . .

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