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Thread: Gun control.. Here is some thing to think about!

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    Default Gun control.. Here is some thing to think about!

    In the wake of a monstrous crime like a madman's mass murder of defenseless women and children at the Newtown, Conn., elementary school, the nation's attention is riveted on what could have been done to prevent such a massacre.

    Luckily, some years ago, two famed economists, William Landes at the University of Chicago and John Lott at Yale, conducted a massive study of multiple victim public shootings in the United States between 1977 and 1995 to see how various legal changes affected their frequency and death toll.

    Landes and Lott examined many of the very policies being proposed right now in response to the Connecticut massacre: waiting periods and background checks for guns, the death penalty and increased penalties for committing a crime with a gun.

    None of these policies had any effect on the frequency of, or carnage from, multiple-victim shootings. (I note that they did not look at reforming our lax mental health laws, presumably because the ACLU is working to keep dangerous nuts on the street in all 50 states.)

    Only one public policy has ever been shown to reduce the death rate from such crimes: concealed-carry laws.

    Their study controlled for age, sex, race, unemployment, retirement, poverty rates, state population, murder arrest rates, violent crime rates, and on and on.

    The effect of concealed-carry laws in deterring mass public shootings was even greater than the impact of such laws on the murder rate generally.

    Someone planning to commit a single murder in a concealed-carry state only has to weigh the odds of one person being armed. But a criminal planning to commit murder in a public place has to worry that anyone in the entire area might have a gun.

    You will notice that most multiple-victim shootings occur in "gun-free zones" -- even within states that have concealed-carry laws: public schools, churches, Sikh temples, post offices, the movie theater where James Holmes committed mass murder, and the Portland, Ore., mall where a nut starting gunning down shoppers a few weeks ago.


    Guns were banned in all these places. Mass killers may be crazy, but they're not stupid.

    If the deterrent effect of concealed-carry laws seems surprising to you, that's because the media hide stories of armed citizens stopping mass shooters. At the Portland shooting, for example, no explanation was given for the amazing fact that the assailant managed to kill only two people in the mall during the busy Christmas season.

    It turns out, concealed-carry-holder Nick Meli hadn't noticed that the mall was a gun-free zone. He pointed his (otherwise legal) gun at the shooter as he paused to reload, and the next shot was the attempted mass murderer killing himself. (Meli aimed, but didn't shoot, because there were bystanders behind the shooter.)

    In a nonsense "study" going around the Internet right now, Mother Jones magazine claims to have produced its own study of all public shootings in the last 30 years and concludes: "In not a single case was the killing stopped by a civilian using a gun."

    This will come as a shock to people who know something about the subject.

    The magazine reaches its conclusion by simply excluding all cases where an armed civilian stopped the shooter: They looked only at public shootings where four or more people were killed, i.e., the ones where the shooter wasn't stopped.

    If we care about reducing the number of people killed in mass shootings, shouldn't we pay particular attention to the cases where the aspiring mass murderer was prevented from getting off more than a couple rounds?

    It would be like testing the effectiveness of weed killers, but refusing to consider any cases where the weeds died.

    In addition to the Portland mall case, here are a few more examples excluded by the Mother Jones' methodology:

    -- Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, this week: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.

    -- Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I'm excluding the shooters' deaths in these examples.)

    -- Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.

    -- Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates -- as well as the "trained campus supervisor"; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.

    -- Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman's head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.

    -- Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.

    By contrast, the shootings in gun-free zones invariably result in far higher casualty figures -- Sikh temple, Oak Creek, Wis. (six dead); Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Va. (32 dead); Columbine High School, Columbine, Colo. (12 dead); Amish school, Lancaster County, Pa. (five little girls killed); public school, Craighead County, Ark. (five killed, including four little girls).

    All these took place in gun-free zones, resulting in lots of people getting killed -- and thereby warranting inclusion in the Mother Jones study.

    If what we care about is saving the lives of innocent human beings by reducing the number of mass public shootings and the deaths they cause, only one policy has ever been shown to work: concealed-carry laws. On the other hand, if what we care about is self-indulgent grandstanding, and to hell with dozens of innocent children being murdered in cold blood, try the other policies.

    2012 ANN COULTER
    DISTRIBUTED BY UNIVERSAL UCLICK

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    THANK YOU !!! these are the statistics you will NEVER see on network news, wonder why ??

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    I previously read the contents of this post as forwarded by a friend through my email account. Personally I have always found logic in Ann Coulter's thought process...but then again I'm just another Angry White man who is conservative minded with a tendency to vote Republican. You'll find my signature boldly enscribed upon those so-called Terrorist Organizations such as the NRA and The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. I am angry that my country is being mis-lead by a socialist Muslim who uses the alias of Barry Sorterro and has staffed a Justice Department lead by a man who should be incarcerated for releasing into society the very guns he now seeks to ban, (vis a vie Fast and Furious). I was once proud of America when Michelle Obama was disgusted and appalled by that same country. Now that she is apparently proud of the direction the country is headed, I am no longer proud of America's direction.

    Today as my family and I engaged in a many years old tradition of attending a movie theater on Christmas day after the gift exchange I was thinking of the Ann Coutler message regarding Concealed Carry. I recalled earlier this year in a movie theater in the lower 48, I believe it was the recent Batman movie, where another mentally deranged individual choose to shoot up a movie theater of largely unarmed people. I don't go to the movies unarmed and for that matter don't go many places anywhere unarmed because of the violent society I live in. Kalifornistan, one of the most strictly regulated gun control states in the union and yet one of the most violent places to live. Hmmm, there's a thought....

    I am a born and bred Yankee, having grown up literally two towns away from Newtown Ct. I was a local police officer for a few years in the adjoining town to Newtown, Ct. Suffice to say I feel a personal geographical connection to that tragedy.

    I am presently among a minority segment of society residing in the People's Republic of Kalifornistan who possesses and makes use of a CCW permit. In today's day and age I feel a responsibility to society in general to be an armed citizen. I live within a 100 mile radius of some 20 million people, a large percentage of which are illegal residents who drain my society of resources and most of which who do not speak the English language nor adopt the behavioral manners of American society. Statistically these illegal residents commit a large percentage of crimes and occupy a disproportionate percentage of the overall population in our prisons system. This also creates a drain of resources in our prison system, which in turn causes the pre-mature release of violent felons. I find though, that most mass murders of recent years (with the exception of Jihadist Terrorists) are native born Americans. Both of these examples of societal predators given are ample reason for us to be the armed lawful citizen. Those of us who are responsible citizens, who choose to exercise that CCW, aid and supplement uniformed law enforcement, plain clothes and undercover L.E. officers in the thin line that separates order from lawlessness.

    I recognize and acknowledge that the daily carrying a firearm is an inconvenience. It (weapons carry) can be personally physically uncomfortable and at times socially awkward. But there is an important aspect to the responsibility, the concept that an armed citizen can step up to make a difference. I was a sworn federal agent at the time of 911 and as such one of a select class of individuals allowed to carry a firearm on board a commercial aircraft. Following 911 I recall wishing I had been on board one of those aircraft that was flown into the Pentagon, the Twin Towers or that Pennsylvania field. Without a doubt I am confident my gun would have altered the outcome of those terrorist events.

    So too my gun would have altered the outcome of a deranged mass murderer shooting defenseless teachers, school administrators and children. But if that gun is not physically on my person, inconveniently poking into my hip or ribs, it is useless. I submit those of us authorized to carry concealed weapons and in possession of a social conscious have the responsibility to arm ourselves, to assist the likes of an Adam Lanza on a one way trip to hell. For the good of society.

    As for guns being the problem in society I pose the question: Is it the spoon that made Rosie O'Donnell fat? Do we ban spoons because the woman is heavy? Is it the ice cream? Perhaps, just perhaps we should lay blame upon the brain controlling the hand that uses the spoon to fill the pie-hole.

    As for high capacity magazines I pose the question: Why are Maserati automobiles that are capable of 200 mph manufactured and/or sold in places with a speed limit of 65 mph? Is it the car that is responsible for the excessive speed that caused the crash or is it the operator of that car that pushed the accelerator? Perhaps it is both or a shared liability combination therein. But I hear no hue and cry to ban Maserati automobiles from American streets. And when the police catch the operator of the Maserati driving too fast the speeding ticket is issued to the driver for the violation of the traffic laws. The automobile is not normally confiscated and sent for demolition to the foundry. I don't hear anything about banning Maserati automobiles. But now, taking advantage of an opportunity, the liberal voice of WashDC will attempt to double down on the misery felt by the families of Newtown CT to advance their own self serving agenda of weapons ban. As if getting rid of high capacity magazines will prevent someone from loading a truck full of nitrogen based fertilizer mixed with motor oil and blowing up a building. Mentally ill people will find a way to commit mass murder no matter how many 30, 60 or 100 round magazines are taken off the street.

    One voice of reason I hear in the vast wasteland of the liberal mindset jumping on the gun control bandwagon is that of noted Forensic Psychologist Michael Welner MD. Dr. Welner has identified and articulated relevant facts that pertain to an individual's decision to commit mass murder. He does not blame the gun. He blames among other issues the media's anal retentive need to validate every aspect of an Adam Lanza. To provide that 15 minutes of worldwide fame and glory. Instead of creating and celebrating Lanza's celebrity which often leads to copy cat lunatics stepping up for their respective 10 minutes of celebrity we as a society should not be lending any media coverage to the criminal's personal plight. Another issue Dr. Welner addresses is the violence on television, Cinema, video games etc. Today's youth are de-sensitized to a violent lifestyle. Dr. Welner suggests an environment of self responsibility, of personal accountability, volunteerism and the developement of personal character. I invite those interested in the subject matter to Google Michael Welner MD's position on sensational crimes. Like Ann Coulter there is a modecum of common sense applied to his analysis.

    But mostly I say to each and every lawful citizen in possession of a CCW permit or residing in a states like Arizona or Alaska where Concealled carry is legal, by all means exercise that 2nd amendment Constitutional right to carry a weapon. Have that weapon poking into your sides, your hip and/or your ribs. Our society needs the good guys to be armed to prevent the bad guys from operating at will. The life you save could be my family member, I'll do the same for you if need be....

    America has become soft and fundamentally weak. For liberty to die patriots need only to remain passive. The current administration will be happy to wisk that pesky bill of rights away from law abiding Americans with the stroke of yet another Executive Order.
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

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    No gun law will prevent random acts of violence. Those are acts of terrorism, whether performed by a deranged individual or by a religious fanatic. I agree that concealed carry is the best deterrent available to us today, and isn't that a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex1811 View Post
    Today as my family and I engaged in a many years old tradition of attending a movie theater on Christmas day after the gift exchange I was thinking of the Ann Coutler message regarding Concealed Carry. I recalled earlier this year in a movie theater in the lower 48, I believe it was the recent Batman movie, where another mentally deranged individual choose to shoot up a movie theater of largely unarmed people. I don't go to the movies unarmed and for that matter don't go many places anywhere unarmed because of the violent society I live in. Kalifornistan, one of the most strictly regulated gun control states in the union and yet one of the most violent places to live. Hmmm, there's a thought....
    And that movie theater that was shot up was posted as a "gun free" zone. It was not the closest or most convenient for the shooter to get to, but was the first one he could get to that was posted as such.

    I know I will be more aware in the future of postings for "gun free" zones and avoid them when possible. Whether I am carrying or not, I would like to think that there would be someone else who might be that would at least provide a chance to stop a crazy lunatic if it was necessary.

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    I can't seem to read signs that say I can't carry a gun into an establishment. They just look like gibberish to me! A touch of dislexia or perhaps a gap in my schoolin'...

    No worry though, airports and courthouses are not amongst the places I frequent.

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    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    Well. George just wasn't right, dontcha know! The well regulated militia is the National Guard of today, so there is no reason for citizens to have guns, especially ones designed for killing people.


    And yes, my sarcasm is turned all the way up.

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    And yet another bogus Washington quote:

    A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government


    The actual quote:

    A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies.

    ---George Washington's First Annual Message to Congress (January 8, 1790)


    ómore here: http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

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    This one is tricky because the first part of it is authentic and the second part might be. But of this we are certain: the two parts have been spliced together. It is quoted in the following form:
    "No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government."


    The first sentence-- with the word "freeman" connected together into one word-- appears in Jefferson's first draft of a Constitution for the State of Virginia. The second sentence, however, DOES NOT appear with the first. It sounds a lot like Jefferson, but I have not been able to locate it. This quote is considered briefly under Gun Control.


    The second sentence of the above quote was included in the December 1992 issue of Analog Magazine, which is a publication devoted mainly to science fiction. The original source was not listed. Although Analog is a reputable science fiction magazine, we could not, of course, accept it as an authoritative source for the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Moreover, it was quoted with a slight change of wording that, in fact, sounds a bit more like Jefferson:
    "The most important reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, if necessary, at last resort to protect themselves from tyranny in government."


    All of this shows how easily quotations become altered and the importance of referring to verifiable sources for those quotations that claim Jefferson as their author.

    ómore here: http://eyler.freeservers.com/JeffPers/jefpco13.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex1811 View Post
    I previously read the contents of this post as forwarded by a friend through my email account. Personally I have always found logic in Ann Coulter's thought process...but then again I'm just another Angry White man who is conservative minded with a tendency to vote Republican. You'll find my signature boldly enscribed upon those so-called Terrorist Organizations such as the NRA and The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. I am angry that my country is being mis-lead by a socialist Muslim who uses the alias of Barry Sorterro and has staffed a Justice Department lead by a man who should be incarcerated for releasing into society the very guns he now seeks to ban, (vis a vie Fast and Furious). I was once proud of America when Michelle Obama was disgusted and appalled by that same country. Now that she is apparently proud of the direction the country is headed, I am no longer proud of America's direction.

    Today as my family and I engaged in a many years old tradition of attending a movie theater on Christmas day after the gift exchange I was thinking of the Ann Coutler message regarding Concealed Carry. I recalled earlier this year in a movie theater in the lower 48, I believe it was the recent Batman movie, where another mentally deranged individual choose to shoot up a movie theater of largely unarmed people. I don't go to the movies unarmed and for that matter don't go many places anywhere unarmed because of the violent society I live in. Kalifornistan, one of the most strictly regulated gun control states in the union and yet one of the most violent places to live. Hmmm, there's a thought....

    I am a born and bred Yankee, having grown up literally two towns away from Newtown Ct. I was a local police officer for a few years in the adjoining town to Newtown, Ct. Suffice to say I feel a personal geographical connection to that tragedy.

    I am presently among a minority segment of society residing in the People's Republic of Kalifornistan who possesses and makes use of a CCW permit. In today's day and age I feel a responsibility to society in general to be an armed citizen. I live within a 100 mile radius of some 20 million people, a large percentage of which are illegal residents who drain my society of resources and most of which who do not speak the English language nor adopt the behavioral manners of American society. Statistically these illegal residents commit a large percentage of crimes and occupy a disproportionate percentage of the overall population in our prisons system. This also creates a drain of resources in our prison system, which in turn causes the pre-mature release of violent felons. I find though, that most mass murders of recent years (with the exception of Jihadist Terrorists) are native born Americans. Both of these examples of societal predators given are ample reason for us to be the armed lawful citizen. Those of us who are responsible citizens, who choose to exercise that CCW, aid and supplement uniformed law enforcement, plain clothes and undercover L.E. officers in the thin line that separates order from lawlessness.

    I recognize and acknowledge that the daily carrying a firearm is an inconvenience. It (weapons carry) can be personally physically uncomfortable and at times socially awkward. But there is an important aspect to the responsibility, the concept that an armed citizen can step up to make a difference. I was a sworn federal agent at the time of 911 and as such one of a select class of individuals allowed to carry a firearm on board a commercial aircraft. Following 911 I recall wishing I had been on board one of those aircraft that was flown into the Pentagon, the Twin Towers or that Pennsylvania field. Without a doubt I am confident my gun would have altered the outcome of those terrorist events.

    So too my gun would have altered the outcome of a deranged mass murderer shooting defenseless teachers, school administrators and children. But if that gun is not physically on my person, inconveniently poking into my hip or ribs, it is useless. I submit those of us authorized to carry concealed weapons and in possession of a social conscious have the responsibility to arm ourselves, to assist the likes of an Adam Lanza on a one way trip to hell. For the good of society.

    As for guns being the problem in society I pose the question: Is it the spoon that made Rosie O'Donnell fat? Do we ban spoons because the woman is heavy? Is it the ice cream? Perhaps, just perhaps we should lay blame upon the brain controlling the hand that uses the spoon to fill the pie-hole.

    As for high capacity magazines I pose the question: Why are Maserati automobiles that are capable of 200 mph manufactured and/or sold in places with a speed limit of 65 mph? Is it the car that is responsible for the excessive speed that caused the crash or is it the operator of that car that pushed the accelerator? Perhaps it is both or a shared liability combination therein. But I hear no hue and cry to ban Maserati automobiles from American streets. And when the police catch the operator of the Maserati driving too fast the speeding ticket is issued to the driver for the violation of the traffic laws. The automobile is not normally confiscated and sent for demolition to the foundry. I don't hear anything about banning Maserati automobiles. But now, taking advantage of an opportunity, the liberal voice of WashDC will attempt to double down on the misery felt by the families of Newtown CT to advance their own self serving agenda of weapons ban. As if getting rid of high capacity magazines will prevent someone from loading a truck full of nitrogen based fertilizer mixed with motor oil and blowing up a building. Mentally ill people will find a way to commit mass murder no matter how many 30, 60 or 100 round magazines are taken off the street.

    One voice of reason I hear in the vast wasteland of the liberal mindset jumping on the gun control bandwagon is that of noted Forensic Psychologist Michael Welner MD. Dr. Welner has identified and articulated relevant facts that pertain to an individual's decision to commit mass murder. He does not blame the gun. He blames among other issues the media's anal retentive need to validate every aspect of an Adam Lanza. To provide that 15 minutes of worldwide fame and glory. Instead of creating and celebrating Lanza's celebrity which often leads to copy cat lunatics stepping up for their respective 10 minutes of celebrity we as a society should not be lending any media coverage to the criminal's personal plight. Another issue Dr. Welner addresses is the violence on television, Cinema, video games etc. Today's youth are de-sensitized to a violent lifestyle. Dr. Welner suggests an environment of self responsibility, of personal accountability, volunteerism and the developement of personal character. I invite those interested in the subject matter to Google Michael Welner MD's position on sensational crimes. Like Ann Coulter there is a modecum of common sense applied to his analysis.

    But mostly I say to each and every lawful citizen in possession of a CCW permit or residing in a states like Arizona or Alaska where Concealled carry is legal, by all means exercise that 2nd amendment Constitutional right to carry a weapon. Have that weapon poking into your sides, your hip and/or your ribs. Our society needs the good guys to be armed to prevent the bad guys from operating at will. The life you save could be my family member, I'll do the same for you if need be....

    America has become soft and fundamentally weak. For liberty to die patriots need only to remain passive. The current administration will be happy to wisk that pesky bill of rights away from law abiding Americans with the stroke of yet another Executive Order.
    Bravo

    I wish people would think more like you



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    A gentle nudge here, to keep the discussion focused on gun control. Some other political comments being made here... let's not go there please.

    Thanks!

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    A big part of the problem is a theater being open Christmas day.JMOFO
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    A big part of the problem is a theater being open Christmas day.JMOFO

    Agree 100 percent !

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    And here's something else to think about... Gun control by DNA? Background check to include DNA?

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/205919621...d=903226511001

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    As for quotes, I think most of these things said by Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and others were probably said over and over to different people and groups and probably weren,t repeated exactly the same each and every time.
    Removing guns from good guys can't help because good guys don't do stupid stuff. You can't remove guns from bad guys because they don't follow rules.
    Making more gun laws can't help because bad guys don't follow laws.
    Removing laws that make no gun zones would probably help but that is the last thing a gun grabber is going to admit even if buired in tons of statistical proof.
    I don't like carring concealed but it looks like it's time to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    As for quotes, I think most of these things said by Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and others were probably said over and over to different people and groups and probably weren,t repeated exactly the same each and every time.
    I think the only place these so called quotes are repeated over end over, is here on the internet where people don't care if they grossly misquote or repeat blatently false statements so long as it fits their purpose.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I think the only place these so called quotes are repeated over end over, is here on the internet where people don't care if they grossly misquote or repeat blatently false statements so long as it fits their purpose.
    come on now taiga if its on the net it must be true....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    come on now taiga if its on the net it must be true....
    Attachment 66775
    ..........
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
    #Resist

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Attachment 66775
    ..........


    well I stand corrected...since honest Abe said it it must be true..thanks for clearing that up

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