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Thread: What are they really saying??

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    Default What are they really saying??

    Words and the meaning of words have meaning! Profound huh!

    These days all kind of phrases and terminology is used by the anti-gun crowd and are even being used by some pro-gunners. Lets take a look at some of them and get some things straight. I'm talking about terms and phrases and the context in which they are used, how they are presented and the influence it has on society. Us pro-gunners need to make sure we don't buy into it or use the same terms in the same way. We also need to educate or re-educate those who have bought in to the rhetoric and hype. So, make sure you know what you're talking about and when someone says they support a ban on assault rifles, ask them what an assault rifle is and when they give you that blank stare, educate them. Maybe ask em if they support an AWB, what that is and closing the Gunshow Loophole and if they know what it is. Educate em again.Learn about gun laws, know your rights.

    I'll list out several and we'll see where this thread goes. I really want to keep it on topic. As most of you know, I am not a heavy handed moderator and very seldom step in. But, for the sake of this thread I will delete posts that turn into a rabbit trail. You can start another thread to chase the rabbit. Don't take it personal. So here goes…

    You turn on the news and hear about a horrendous killing of innocent people and hear something like this….


    Reporter One… Or Politician One
    First reports are that Mr. Shooter used a high powered Assault Rifle and possibly another Assault Weapon and was carrying multiple High Capacity Clips. It appears the other Assault Weapon was a Military Style handgun frequently issued to US Marines and Navy Seals. Those close to him say he was a Doomsday Prepper type who was known to frequent Tea Party meetings and had a Small Arsenal of weapons, including body armor.
    Reporter Two… Or Politician Two
    Thank you Reporter/Politician One. This is another horrible example of Gun Violence that is sweeping across our nation at an alarming rate. Our hope is that the Gun Culture will be willing to take some meaningful steps towards compromise and support reinstating the expired Assault Weapons Ban so we can end this senseless Gun Violence. But it is likely the NRA and other Gun Rights Advocate groups will fight against such meaningful measures. Do we know how Mr. Shooter aquired these Assault Weapon?
    Reporter One… Or Politician One
    Thank you ReporterPoltician Two, It is suspected that Mr. Shooter may have acquired the Assault Weapons by taking advantage of the Gun Show Loophole. Which means he was not required to go through a background check. It is also reported that he was in possession of hundreds of rounds of ammunition including the lethal Cop Killer bullets and was member of the NRA. At times Mr Shooter has also been a vocal Gun Rights Advocate and may have ties to a local Militia Group.


    I think you get my point, how many times have you heard this. The banter is the same whether it's the reporters or anti-gun politicians. All of this phraseology is used in a negative context toward guns, gun owners and how they acquire them. This is how the media and anti-gun politicians talk to America when it comes to a killer using a gun to commit assault. It's no wonder people freak out. It's not really about Mr. Shooter, it's about the anti-gun agenda.


    Assault Rifle - A rather menacing political term created and used in the context of banning certain types of semi-automatic rifles. One can commit an assault with a rifle or other items but there is no such thing as an Assault Rifle unless we are talking about a specific weapon in the context of the military. You can google this and add what you will. These are my own words.

    Assault Weapon- Another menacing political term used to describe a gun that is not a rifle for the purposes of banning them.

    Assault Weapons Ban (AWB)- This should actually be called a Semi-Automatic Weapons Ban because that's what it is.

    Arsenal or Small Arsenal- How many guns does it take to have an arsenal? The media seems to think anytihng more that 1 or 2.

    Gun Violence - Wow, this one really gets me. How can an object be violent? People do that. There is no such thing but it sure sounds scary. Makes for a good sensational sound bite.

    Gunshow Loop Hole- No loop hole here. Just to people making a trade. A face to face (FTF) firearms transaction at a gunshow between two private citizens, neither of which are FFL holders. No different than a FTF sale in your living room. If an FFL sells a gun at a gunshow he still has to perform a NICS check. If they "Close the Gunshow Loophole" how will that effect other FTF firearm transactions?

    High Capacity Clip - They are referring to a magazine but don't know what they are talking about. This is another thing that peeves me. Just the other day, Jay Carney, spokesman for the President of the United States of America, the most powerful office on Earth, in reference to Obamas stance on another AWB refers to "High Capacity Clips"... What a dweeb. The guy showed us right there that he's supporting a ban on something he knows nothing about.

    Gun Culture- Huh? This seems to be used as a negative description of anyone who owns a gun. Like it's some sort of stigma.


    Doomsday Prepper- Another phrase used in a negative way to imply some sort of stigma. I guess if you store up for a rainy day or have more than a weeks worth of food, own a generator, some beans and rice, have a freezer full of meet and a couple guns, this is what you are… huh?


    Gun Rights Advocate- Code for "A nut who believes in the 2A". This should actually be Civil Rights Activist. As in one who is active in trying to maintain our civil right to keep and bear arms. The NRA is a Civil Rights Activist group. Like them or not, they are fighting for every Americans 2nd Amendment right. Not just those who agree with what they are doing.


    Cop Killer Bullets - Super Duper kill the good guy bullets... Formerly Black Talon Hollow point, now the Ranger ammo. Some of you may have some. I can't find any in town. I guess that makes me a good guy cuz I just have plane ol' 230gr Gold Dots for my 45.


    Militia Group - Code for domestic terrorists. Never mind that Alaska has one. huh...


    Well, there's my list. Add to it, correct me if need be.
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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    I gotta admit- I don't understand the "Gun Show Loophole" and I've been a first rate rifle crank for years and years.

    The single firearm I've ever purchased at a gunshow had a background check performed by local PD prior to purchase...that was in the mid 90s.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    I gotta admit- I don't understand the "Gun Show Loophole" and I've been a first rate rifle crank for years and years.

    The single firearm I've ever purchased at a gunshow had a background check performed by local PD prior to purchase...that was in the mid 90s.
    The basic idea behind the close the "Gunshow loophole" is to require a background check on all firearm transfers. To include FTF between private citizens. By calling a FTF transfer a Gunshow loophole, it builds the public perception that it needs fixed to save lives. They could call it the newspaer classifieds loophole, or the Alaskaslist loophole, or the buddy at work loophole and be closer to the truth, but then the public would understand it easier, and they do not want that.

    For decades now the anti-gun crowd has been building public sentiment on the basis that there is a "special" loophole at gunshows that allows criminals to buy guns from dealers, a point we as gun owners know to be false, but truth doesn't matter to their untilamte agenda of total gun control.

    The anti-gun establishment has been working to build the perception in the general public that guns are bad, period. But, they know they cannot acomplish their agrenda outright, therefore they pick on part at a time. Kind of like moving mountains, impossible all at once, but one shovel full at a time an entirely possible concept.

    So divide and conquer based on emotional events and false information that fits their final solution. Pick "assault weapons" now, get them outlawed, then handguns of XX caliber because statistically XX% of all homicides are used by THAT caliber, then outlaw 12ga shotguns because they are now the problem, then get all the 22 LR's and 20ga, because they are now the go to gun of choice. And on and on. The whole time they keep beating the drum of oh this and that is so bad, and harping to our children in schools, college and elsewhere until they have raised generations of children with the mentality that guns are bad. Eventually "they" will grow in numbers to have the power to vote out the 2nd, their ultimate goal....

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    I still don't get the whole "Cop Killer" idea. I was only a teenager when that term was first coined so I don't recall the original circumstances. But as I understand it the term refers to hollow points correct? How is a hollow point ever more likely to penetrate body armor? Isn't the purpose of hollow points to expand and NOT have extreme penetration? That and the fact that the BATF is apparently now banning at least some solid ball ammunition due to its armor piercing nature seem contradictory. Not that I'd ever want to get shot with anything, but if I was wearing body armor I think hollow points would have been what I prefered to get hit with. Am I mistaken here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by evandailey View Post
    I still don't get the whole "Cop Killer" idea. Am I mistaken here?

    http://www.gunslot.com/articles/black-talon-ammo

    "COP Killer" labeled bullets- they are a GREAT example of the public NOT being properly informed.

    The same description of "COP Killer" the black talons have can be applied to several solid copper expanding type hollow points today made by manufacturers such as Barnes.

    Should we ban them as well?

    What bullet won't kill a cop or anyone else if placed at high volume in a vital area?

    Why were THESE bullets seperated from the rest and labeled as COP Killers?

    Goes right along with the Words and the meaning of words have meaning! theme Snyd started this thread on. Don't ca' think?

    Back to my point in my previous post about- "So divide and conquer based on emotional events and false information that fits their final solution."

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    Any excuse to push forward a liberal agenda...never let a good tragedy go to waste. WIth our VP incharge of that commission there is no need to guess what their recomendations will be. Some of this is a distraction from the economy that they can't fix.

    At least there are few folks out there talking about reform in mental health care, which of course is where the problem lies.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    http://www.gunslot.com/articles/black-talon-ammo

    "COP Killer" labeled bullets- they are a GREAT example of the public NOT being properly informed.

    The same description of "COP Killer" the black talons have can be applied to several solid copper expanding type hollow points today made by manufacturers such as Barnes.

    Should we ban them as well?

    What bullet won't kill a cop or anyone else if placed at high volume in a vital area?

    Why were THESE bullets seperated from the rest and labeled as COP Killers?

    Goes right along with the Words and the meaning of words have meaning! theme Snyd started this thread on. Don't ca' think?

    Back to my point in my previous post about- "So divide and conquer based on emotional events and false information that fits their final solution."
    Yeah I understand that labeling the Black Talons and not others as "Cop Killers" was misguided at best.

    I guess what I was asking is was there even a shred of truth to the claim that those bullets or any other hollow points were more likely to pierce body armor? I just thought they would be LESS likely to do so.

    I just don't understand how that claim ever started. Usually there is at least a TINY bit of true information at the beginning of a rumor that gets totally blow out of proportion, exagerated, and falsely spread. Or was this a case of somebody seeing a couple of cop shootings noticing those bullets were used and jumping to conclusions? Sort of like saying "Three people died in car accidents last week and all three were in blue cars, therefore blue cars are more likely to kill you."

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    Evan

    No there is no scientific fact behind this myth. The link I posted with my reply gave a pretty accurate summary of the "myth" of the cop killers and the truth behind them. Bottom line, no they were no more likely to penetrate body armor anymore than another solid copper type of solid hollow point.

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    It is clear that the left-leaning press will always use loaded words to favor their agenda, which is generally anti-gun. Now before someone nails me about "left-leaning", by their own admission and by research, the media has been found to be largely so: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...UCLA-6664.aspx
    As for the so-called "gun show loophole", well, I have never bought a gun at a gun show to date, but have purchased more than a few firearms from private sellers. I love the anonymity of it. I suspect that is what many people like about face-to-face transactions v over-the-counter sales, with the documentation. Many suspect such documentation could be used if weapons were ever confiscated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Words and the meaning of words have meaning! Profound huh!

    These days all kind of phrases and terminology is used by the anti-gun crowd and are even being used by some pro-gunners. Lets take a look at some of them and get some things straight. I'm talking about terms and phrases and the context in which they are used, how they are presented and the influence it has on society. Us pro-gunners need to make sure we don't buy into it or use the same terms in the same way. We also need to educate or re-educate those who have bought in to the rhetoric and hype. So, make sure you know what you're talking about and when someone says they support a ban on assault rifles, ask them what an assault rifle is and when they give you that blank stare, educate them. Maybe ask em if they support an AWB, what that is and closing the Gunshow Loophole and if they know what it is. Educate em again.Learn about gun laws, know your rights.

    I'll list out several and we'll see where this thread goes. I really want to keep it on topic. As most of you know, I am not a heavy handed moderator and very seldom step in. But, for the sake of this thread I will delete posts that turn into a rabbit trail. You can start another thread to chase the rabbit. Don't take it personal. So here goes…

    Yes, words have meaning, and for the record, I am pro-gun, pro-Second Amendment. But can we not believe that there are other, decent, well-meaning people who see things differently than do we?


    All the verbiage from both sides of the debate are but politicized definitions . . kinda like "Pro-Choice"—read "baby killers—or "Pro-Life"—read "women haters." Both terms mean different things to the respective positions. Same with the anti-gun/assault weapon debate.


    We are the only animal that can kill each other at a distance, and firearms are the chief means to indulge that ability. Understand that some really decent people find guns abhorrent. Rather than sing to the choir, write intelligent, well-reasoned letters-to-the-editor in an effort to educate those who oppose gun ownership.

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    Listen carefully, see how many of the anti-gun phrases you hear. He uses the phrase "Military style assault weapons and high capacity ammunition clips". "...the epidemic of gun violence in this country" Listen and read between the lines.

    Last edited by Snyd; 12-21-2012 at 10:11.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    . . So, it only has to LOOK like a Military weapon. . .

    Snyd, yes, that is absolutely the case.


    Perception is reality.

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    Snyd-
    I really, really like the arrow over that mouth!

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    On the money Snyd! "They" use these terms to shift the focus from the root causes to an inanimate object in order to advance their agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Snyd, yes, that is absolutely the case.


    Perception is reality.
    Actually it's a "perceived reality" and not reality at all, which is why we as gun owners who don't want to see our guns taken from us and our freedoms diminished need to recognize this and call it for what is. We need to resist this perversion of "reality". Giving ground to it only reinforces and enables those who have an anti-gun agenda. They will not stop at just banning semi-autos and high capacity mags which shouldn't be banned in the first place. An AR is no more a Military Assault Weapon then a Rem 1100... or a Rem 700 bolt, which was used in Vietnam.

    A gun is a gun is a gun... some have different features and ALL can be used for killing animals or People.

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    Default Perception is reality . . .

    Follow-up, Snyd, to "if it looks like a duck" . . .


    The claim that perception is reality is fundamentally a philosophical assertion as summed up in St. Augustine's statement, "crede, ut intelligas" (believe so that you may understand). Most people are under the illusion that the facts define what they believe; Augustine asserts that belief defines fact. To use a simple example, a Christian will perceive the world far differently than will an Atheist. What is fact to a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim is error to an Atheist and vice-versa. Perception is reality.


    Thus, yes, if it looks like an assault rifle, it is an assault rifle. Consider: a Thompson or an Uzi or a Mac-10 are gangster weapons. An over-and-under shotgun is a sporting/skeet gun. A bolt-action, scoped rifle is a hunting rifle. A Colt Single-action Army and a Winchester '73 are "Old West" weaponry. That is how they are perceived, that is what they are regardless of technical trivia.


    There simply is no way, in my mind anyway, that we will ever convince the public who understand assault rifles as defined by configuration otherwise.


    Where one thinks it best to go from there is a matter of opinion, but we will never, ever ram a contrary point of view down their throats. Perception is reality. You want to change public perception of what constitutes an assault weapon? Change their perceptions.


    Good luck . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Snyd, yes, that is absolutely the case.


    Perception is reality.
    As MontanaRifleman said... Perception is Perceived reality. That is the point of this thread. We need to call this nonsense for what it is and educate and/or re-educate people. Both anti and pro-gunners and those who may not know what to think. Just listen to the double talk from the President. It's absolutely disgusting. Not surprising, but disgusting.

    But, as we've seen in this thread already, even us pro-gunners don't have a handle on all of it. We need to keep talking, learning and educating.

    I have talked to people who own guns but never have purchased one who think that guns are, or need to be registered somewhere at the Federal level. They just assumed the "gun grampa gave them", for example, was registered at some point.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

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    I sincerely wish you and those who think as you do the very best of luck with your efforts.


    That said, I sincerely believe you're pissing in the wind and will only come away with wet pants.


    Best of luck and Merry Christmas . . .
    Last edited by Snyd; 12-22-2012 at 10:36.

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    Can't help but wonder.... On a forum where political discussion is not allowed.... How can a moderator of said forum add a video of our current President and ridicule his words...??

    I am as concerned as the rest of you. But maybe we need a 'when it's okay to the bend the rules' rule....
    I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM2K7sV-K74

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    Quote Originally Posted by akiceman25 View Post
    Can't help but wonder.... On a forum where political discussion is not allowed.... How can a moderator of said forum add a video of our current President and ridicule his words...??

    I am as concerned as the rest of you. But maybe we need a 'when it's okay to the bend the rules' rule....
    Fair enough, I'll edit it. Even though my comments were not ridiculing, merely pointing out his own words. How's this?...

    Listen carefully, see how many of the anti-gun phrases you hear. He uses the phrase "Military style assault weapons and high capacity ammunition clips". "...the epidemic of gun violence in this country" Listen and read between the lines.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again

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