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Thread: Intentional swamping of dip-netters . . . ?

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    Default Intentional swamping of dip-netters . . . ?

    I just got off the phone with a drifter and a set-netter in an attempt to get their take on charges of commercial fishermen intentionally swamping dip-netters.

    My drift-net acquaintance said that those big drift boats with a draft of three to four feet must stay in the channel and must hit the river with some speed for lift and to fight the current. So, yes, they do throw quite a wake. But to accuse these people of purposely trying to swamp dippers is, I think, unwarranted without confirmation by the accused party.

    Second, my set-net acquaintance was not aware of very many set-netters fishing out of the Kenai. Set-nets are not allowed within one mile of the mouth of the river, and most set-netters keep their boats at the beach sites. Again, to accuse set-netters of purposely trying to swamp dippers is, I think, unwarranted unless one knows for certain that the offending boat is purposely trying to swamp folks and unless one knows for certain that the accused boat belongs to and is being operated by a set-netter.

    Do some commercial fishermen enjoy seeing their boats inconvenience dip-netters? Maybe. But that's a far cry from intent.

    Personally, I'm sick to death of all the vitriol attendant to our fisheries down here, and I sick of hearing commercial fishermen accused and blamed for the woes, real and imagined, of sport-anglers and dip-netters. Can't count the times I've heard some yahoo 25 miles upstream blaming his lack of reds on "the nets are out today." Can't count the number of times I've heard dippers, here and elsewhere, blame the commercial nets because they can't come from wherever, at their convenience, and fill their coolers 'cause "the nets are out."

    Commercials/set-netters intentionally swamping dippers? Let's make sure of the facts.

    . . . . who needs it . . ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post



    Personally, I'm sick to death of all the vitriol attendant to our fisheries down here, and I sick of hearing commercial fishermen accused and blamed for Commercials/set-netters intentionally swamping dippers? Let's make sure of the facts.

    . . . . who needs it . . ?
    If your so sick of it. Why are you wanting to start anouther fight?

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    Default Right on...

    BINGO! Rep point to ya!

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    If your so sick of it. Why are you wanting to start anouther fight?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    If your so sick of it. Why are you wanting to start anouther fight?
    I would have to agree. In the other thread there were direct, seemingly credible witnesses, such as Mike Strahan who have both seen this occur with their own eyes, and encountered the offenders at the dock.... Why start over with another thread?
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    Default Intentional swamping of dip-netters . . . ?

    I don't really see any difference between your stance that a commercial fisherman would never do that, and a sport or dipnetter saying they do.

    If you are really saying that every single commercial fisherman would never do that, your credibility is suspect.

    And before you accuse me of being anti commercial, I'm not. I have been around a lot of commercial fisherman though, and they are just like the rest of us. Some jerks, but mostly good guys trying to make a living.

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    Smile Here's why . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    I would have to agree. In the other thread there were direct, seemingly credible witnesses, such as Mike Strahan who have both seen this occur with their own eyes, and encountered the offenders at the dock.... Why start over with another thread?
    Why?

    Here's why. I have no doubt whatsoever that dip-netters have been swamped by the wakes of commercial boats and have witnessed it myself.

    Whether or not dip-netters have been swamped by commercial wakes is not the question.

    Question number one is: Is such swamping done intentionally?

    Question number two is: Is such swamping done by set-netters?

    Question number three is: How does one know the boats are operated by set-netters?

    I started this thread to clear up ambiguities in the other thread and to not further take the other thread off-topic.

    And, no, I did not say nor do I believe that such swamping could be done intentionally. But that is not the question. The question is, if one is going to accuse, how does one know? See the questions above.

    That's all . .

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    As has been pointed out, there are a-holes in every demographic. While the percentage of commercial operators who are a-holes vs. the percentage of set netters who are a-holes might be an entertaining question to pursue, I think if your intent is to prove that no set netters are a-holes you'll have a long row to hoe. The facts are that people in boats have swamped dip netters. Given my understanding of people, there is no doubt, some of those people are doing it intentionally.

    When my dad was young, he lived on a large lake and had a small dock from which he often fished. Ski boaters would come by, very close and very intentionally, in an attempt to wash him off his dock. He solved the problem by keeping a bucket of fist sized rocks with him on the dock when he fished...

    Times change, people stay the same. There will always be a-holes in boats who think it a fun game to try to swamp people who are not in boats. I would suggest never going into the water so far that you are at risk of topping your waders.... And carry a couple baseball sized rocks.
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    Smile Missing the point . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    1) . . there are a-holes in every demographic. Set-netters are not immune, . .
    2) The facts are that people in boats have swamped dip netters. Given my understanding of people, there is no doubt, some of those people are doing it intentionally. . .
    Couldn't agree more, but again, that is not the question:

    The questions are "How does one know whether a particular instance of swamping is intentional or not?" and "How does one know that such intentional-swampers are set-netters?"

    Accusations have been made. I simply would like to know how we know the accusations are true in any given instance.

    This isn't rocket science . . .

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    Default and does it really matter...

    Does it really matter if the ones doing the swamping are gill or set netters? The impression left by the comm fishemen is the same - and the one's being swamped really don't care which group it was.

    The impact on the sport and PU fishermen is the same.. and there are a lot of them, and many of them won't forget. When it comes down to trying to extract sympathy for the ESSNs getting shutdown - guess what - it just isn't there. Instead, expect more crying of shutting down the ESSNs - and eventually the drift netters - for some reason or another. P1sssing off large groups of people trying to feed their families is never a good idea - it will come back to bite you big time.

    And yes- I do realize that only a small number of the fishermen are the offenders. But like the bad apple- that is more than enough!



    Quote Originally Posted by stanbiker View Post
    I don't really see any difference between your stance that a commercial fisherman would never do that, and a sport or dipnetter saying they do.

    If you are really saying that every single commercial fisherman would never do that, your credibility is suspect.

    And before you accuse me of being anti commercial, I'm not. I have been around a lot of commercial fisherman though, and they are just like the rest of us. Some jerks, but mostly good guys trying to make a living.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    If your so sick of it. Why are you wanting to start anouther fight?

    Why would you personally attack and accuse me?

    Can you read my mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Can you read my mind?
    You do realized you just admitted to wanting to start a fight. LOL

    Would you like to tell us why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Why?

    Here's why. I have no doubt whatsoever that dip-netters have been swamped by the wakes of commercial boats and have witnessed it myself.

    Whether or not dip-netters have been swamped by commercial wakes is not the question.

    Question number one is: Is such swamping done intentionally?

    Question number two is: Is such swamping done by set-netters?

    Question number three is: How does one know the boats are operated by set-netters?

    I started this thread to clear up ambiguities in the other thread and to not further take the other thread off-topic.

    And, no, I did not say nor do I believe that such swamping could be done intentionally. But that is not the question. The question is, if one is going to accuse, how does one know? See the questions above.

    That's all . .
    Marcus,

    I tried to answer this in my post in the other thread... The only way I know of to determine someone's intent is to directly ask them. So I did. I went up to the docks to purchase ice, and while I was there some of the commercial crews were around. So I asked one of the guys about it. He laughed and said that it was a big joke with some of the operators. There was some ill-will against the dip netters and the swampings were intentional. I guess I could video tape it next summer... but it's a known issue. As to whether it's being done by set-netters or drifters, all I can say is that the water coming in over the top of your chest waders is just as cold, regardless of the boat that put it there. Most of the dipnetters don't know or care beyond just not wanting to get soaked or swamped. Some of the boats I personally saw change course toward dip netters (off of the channel line followed by the other boats) were big, heavy drifters throwing up huge wakes.

    I don't dispute the need for speed going through that channel. I've operated a lot of boats in my days, and I get that. The issue is the handful who make deliberate course corrections to soak the folks on the beach. Again, this has nothing to do with bashing any group of folks out there. I support commercial fishing with my words and my dollars. This is just a few goof-balls who need to be reprimanded in some way. If any of them are reading this, a word of caution may be in order: you never know who might be standing on the beach or up on the bluffs with a high-resolution video camera and the authority to do something with the evidence so obtained. We have a lot of issues on the Kenai, but things like this are not going to solve them. We've got to work together.

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    This issue is like the Hatfield's vs. the McCoy's.

    I've seen wakes intentially made by dipnetters every bit as bad. They laugh as it rocks and smashes the commercial boats tied up together (some commercial fishermen are actually trying to get a few hours sleep on those things). Heck, the dippers even swamp each other. I've seen them intentionally tie off to the commercial boats, commercial bouys, get their motors hung on the boat's anchors, and even cut their ropes then leave like it's a hit and run. I've seen dippers intentionally run over set-net lines, stakes, and even nets, half drunked up in the middle of the night.

    The bad blood between the two is understandable, athough not justifyable. But I've never heard of any dipper getting anything more than wet over a commecial fishemen's wake. But I have heard of dippers getting hurt by dippers.

    When I dipnet, I heed to the commercial guys. They are trying to make a living. They were there first. And they are bigger. Besides, I'm just having fun, and it's easy to put a few sockeye in my freezer without pizzing them off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    As has been pointed out, there are a-holes in every demographic. While the percentage of commercial operators who are a-holes vs. the percentage of set netters who are a-holes might be an entertaining question to pursue, I think if your intent is to prove that no set netters are a-holes you'll have a long row to hoe. The facts are that people in boats have swamped dip netters. Given my understanding of people, there is no doubt, some of those people are doing it intentionally.

    When my dad was young, he lived on a large lake and had a small dock from which he often fished. Ski boaters would come by, very close and very intentionally, in an attempt to wash him off his dock. He solved the problem by keeping a bucket of fist sized rocks with him on the dock when he fished...

    Times change, people stay the same. There will always be a-holes in boats who think it a fun game to try to swamp people who are not in boats. I would suggest never going into the water so far that you are at risk of topping your waders.... And carry a couple baseball sized rocks.
    I am a drifter, and have felt bad about my wake when comming into the river! I try to never cause anyone to be swamped. If anyone ever endangers my boat or crew with a fist size rock it will be the last thing they will ever do with that arm, you can bet your life on that!!! Because you just did. As a wise man once said "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" or a rock in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I am a drifter, and have felt bad about my wake when comming into the river! I try to never cause anyone to be swamped. If anyone ever endangers my boat or crew with a fist size rock it will be the last thing they will ever do with that arm, you can bet your life on that!!! Because you just did. As a wise man once said "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" or a rock in this case.
    Well, you sound like a fine gentelman, and it sounds like you would never intentionally attempt to endanger anyone's life with your boat, so you should have nothing to fear of someone defending him/herself with a rock.

    I'm not advocating violence. But if I were intentionally threatened by someone operating any kind of vehicle, boat or otherwise, I would defend myself with whatever means I had at my disposal. I'm sure you would do the same.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Default rubbish

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    But to accuse these people of purposely trying to swamp dippers is, I think, unwarranted without confirmation by the accused party.

    That logic is rubbish. Extend your faulty logic to our penal system and poof; you'd have 100% empty prisons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Commercials/set-netters intentionally swamping dippers? Let's make sure of the facts.
    More rubbish. Put some boots on the sand and you'll see what the facts are yourself, since reading them seems to work not so much.

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    Default dipnetters do know where the channel is - its where all the large boats travel- duh

    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I am a drifter, and have felt bad about my wake when comming into the river! I try to never cause anyone to be swamped.
    If you stay in the channel no one will think you're doing anything wrong or bad.

    But if you were to recognize me on the beach, swerve your large boat towards the Kenai shoreline, then come along parallel with all the dipnetters nets and wave to me, I'm pretty sure that everyone even close to me would wave back to you, but they'd probably use fewer fingers. Some might even take your picture and share it with their favorite LEO (meaning, the one that answers the cell phone call).

    Look on the bright side. If most of the dipnetters didn't have cellphones, intentional waking/swamping would likely happen much more than it does.

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    I was thinking of a way to make safety for dip-netters #1, and the way to cut down on the wake conflict would be to only have dip-netting open during the same hours as ESSN and Drifters. That way no dip-netters would be in the water when most of the boats would be running in and out of the river!

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    I can't believe that in a forum for outdoors activities, getting a little water in your pants warrants this much discussion. Ha.

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    Default ..or...

    Or we could simply shutdown the drift and set netters when people are dip netting. Life was more pleasant for the dip netters this year with the ESSNs out of the picture I think all the dip netters would all agree. I'm sure it will be suggested again this year to protect the kings or some other reason.

    Or we could simply fine the heck out of the set and drift netters causing the issues, AND the fine the dip netters that are causing the problems on the banks and the other 95% of us could have a great time.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    I was thinking of a way to make safety for dip-netters #1, and the way to cut down on the wake conflict would be to only have dip-netting open during the same hours as ESSN and Drifters. That way no dip-netters would be in the water when most of the boats would be running in and out of the river!
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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