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Thread: Petition to End Salmon and Halibut Bycatch

  1. #1

    Default Petition to End Salmon and Halibut Bycatch

    Cliffhanger just pointed me to this petition and thought I'd pass it on here. Take a look and please "sign" if you agree.

    Here's the text for the petition:

    "We the sport and subsistence fishing people of Alaska, demand an end to trawler bottom fishing of pollock, which produces chinook salmon and halibut bycatch. We demand a full investigation and the complete shutdown of this fishing industry until results show the trawlers don't take all the fish. We have a right to our fair share of this fishery through sport and/or subsistence fishing according to Article 8.3 of Alaska State Constitution."

    http://signon.org/sign/end-salmon-ha...t&r_by=6316585
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    Done! Very simple to do. Make your voice heard

  3. #3

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    "We demand a full investigation and the complete shutdown of this fishing industry until results show the trawlers don't take all the fish."

    Really? Demanding an investigation and specifying what the findings must be in advance? If trawlers took all the fish there would be no need to protect halibut and salmon because they would not exist.
    Not that I disagree in spirit...It is just too bad petitions such as this seem to be written at the 4th grade drop out level.

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    I seem to remember Muttley tellling us all how much Chinook and halibut he catches. Or is there none to catch since the trawlers took em all? Or did Muttley not catch anything and tell us a fish tale? I'm confused.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    I'm confused.
    It's always good to be able to recognize it.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Lol, true.

    Or I could start a petition that states.....I'd like everyone who impacts fish, catches them differently than I(we) do, and utilizes them in a different way (say in the pursuit of other species) must be shut down.

    Then add to the fun, by me having an a commercial interest in making is so.......and you have the original proposal.

    Hyperbole like that original petition, with such obvious bias does nothing positive in regards to fishery managment imo.

  7. #7

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    Muttley, you get a little rough when folks don’t agree with you don’t you?

    I think I have a fair understanding of Chinook and Halibut biology. I think you likely do as well. Your posts seem knowledgeable about that. What I was pointing out that it’s ironic that a charter operator would be leading the charge to eliminate a competing sector in such an inflammatory way. I’m not saying a guide shouldn’t advocate, but simply commenting on your manner and posted material.

    While bottom trawling does result in some amounts of bycatch……so does all fishing. Yes, even sportfishing (not specifically guided either as private is distinct from guided.) has some associated bycatch. Also the NPFMC or council has been acting on both issues, Chinook bycatch in the GOA Pollock fishery and Halibut bycatch in GOA fisheries.

    Halibut
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/bycat...t-bycatch.html

    salmon
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/bycat...n-bycatch.html

    and observer restructuring to improve overall bycatch data.
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/conse...r-program.html


    So I see real movement there with more likely moving forward into the future. I think everyone wants a well-managed fishery for all sectors and users. I don’t want so see anyone “shut down” to prove an impossible negative.

    I just want sound management to trump emotion. I think allocation discussions are great when discussed honestly, but have doubts when everything isn’t transparent. If you were so worried, Muttley, about Chinook and Halibut Stocks (not harvestable surplus), and you thought things were so bad a valid user group had to be eliminated…………..why do you continue to fish for them?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    Muttley, you get a little rough when folks don’t agree with you don’t you?

    I think I have a fair understanding of Chinook and Halibut biology. I think you likely do as well. Your posts seem knowledgeable about that. What I was pointing out that it’s ironic that a charter operator would be leading the charge to eliminate a competing sector in such an inflammatory way. I’m not saying a guide shouldn’t advocate, but simply commenting on your manner and posted material.

    While bottom trawling does result in some amounts of bycatch……so does all fishing. Yes, even sportfishing (not specifically guided either as private is distinct from guided.) has some associated bycatch. Also the NPFMC or council has been acting on both issues, Chinook bycatch in the GOA Pollock fishery and Halibut bycatch in GOA fisheries.

    Halibut
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/bycat...t-bycatch.html

    salmon
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/bycat...n-bycatch.html

    and observer restructuring to improve overall bycatch data.
    http://www.fakr.noaa.gov/npfmc/conse...r-program.html


    So I see real movement there with more likely moving forward into the future. I think everyone wants a well-managed fishery for all sectors and users. I don’t want so see anyone “shut down” to prove an impossible negative.

    I just want sound management to trump emotion. I think allocation discussions are great when discussed honestly, but have doubts when everything isn’t transparent. If you were so worried, Muttley, about Chinook and Halibut Stocks (not harvestable surplus), and you thought things were so bad a valid user group had to be eliminated…………..why do you continue to fish for them?
    No I get a little "rough" with people that display immense ignorance like you are doing. Unfortunately it is people like you that will have everyone in AK fishing for just one "slot limit" halibut per day and watch as king salmon fishing totally disappears from the Kenai River and other rivers in and around AK.

    What I am hoping to eradicate is the over exploitation of a natural resource due to people wanting to be sure they can go to McDonalds and not worry about whether they'll be able to buy their precious Fillet of Fish sandwich. Yeah, it's not quite that simple, but that's essentially what thinking like yours is going to develop into.

    I continue to fish for them because I am utilizing the natural resource the way it should be utilized and I don't want to see it change. With your viewpoint I will not be able to utilize it at all in the not to distant future.

    BTW---I started this thread to point people in the right direction to sign the petition if they'd like to. NOT to argue the merits of the issue. And I will NOT argue it anymore than the little bit I've already done. I won't reply to any replies that are left after this post. Go to the Resource Management forum and start your own thread there if you want to "discuss" the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttley Crew Fishing View Post
    No I get a little "rough" with people that display immense ignorance like you are doing. Unfortunately it is people like you that will have everyone in AK fishing for just one "slot limit" halibut per day and watch as king salmon fishing totally disappears from the Kenai River and other rivers in and around AK.
    Speaking of ignorant, you're aware I'm sure (HA!) that AkBrown has a greater knowledge of our fisheries than probably 96% of the members here, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muttley
    I continue to fish for them because I am utilizing the natural resource the way it should be utilized and I don't want to see it change. With your viewpoint I will not be able to utilize it at all in the not to distant future.
    All for a fee, of course.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    Speaking of ignorant, you're aware I'm sure (HA!) that AkBrown has a greater knowledge of our fisheries than probably 96% of the members here, right?



    All for a fee, of course.
    Priceless!


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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Extremist positions like those in this (ridiculous) petition don't in any way help imo. They only serve to further polarize and cause more to be misinformed about the reality. Ban all commercial bottom fishing for pollock, our salmon problems are solved, eh? And this advice is coming from a commercial operator in a different sector...priceless.

    Aw jeez indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Extremist positions like those in this (ridiculous) petition don't in any way help imo. They only serve to further polarize and cause more to be misinformed about the reality. Ban all commercial bottom fishing for pollock, our salmon problems are solved, eh? And this advice is coming from a commercial operator in a different sector...priceless.

    Aw jeez indeed.

    Bingo . . . . . . . .

  14. #14

    Default How Many Kings Did You Kill Today

    I know Tholepin is just a blog rag but here is who caught what
    http://tholepin.blogspot.com/2012/11...this-year.html

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    Default Here we are again

    And again and again and again
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Bycatch is a big problem for halibut and kings. Why is it bad to sign a petition? I am all for anything that shines a light on it.

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    Sorry but it will never fly. In the first place it is impossible to do what is being asked: "We demand a full investigation and the complete shutdown of this fishing industry until results show the trawlers don't take all the fish." If you shut it down, how are you going to measure their take. It is not possible to answer the question using any means of research that they "don't take all the fish".

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    What is "wrong" is that petition would have no chance of doing anything. It would and could never result in any lawful outcome. It is simply a waste of time, when real things need done.

    Then there is the fact that light is already being shone on bycatch in the GOA…real work. .......did you read those links? This is Alaska, not the east coast. Then to be fair even the East coast and the rest of the US is following the Alaskan model and improving it every day, now that the needed changes were done to the MSFMCA in its last reauthorization.

    Then your statement that bycatch is a big problem.........in what way? That the fish is used, but you don't get to use it yourself? What? That the numbers aren't known? (They are to a point, and the uncertainty that is there is known and accounted for). There is an also current effort to vastly improve such bycatch data in the Observer Restructuring amendment. I challenge you to find where it is a primary concern to both biomass (halibut and Chinook) in regards to GOA trawlers and their bycatch. Not the harvestable surplus now…….the overall biomass. You won’t because it doesn’t exist. They are no more unlawful or bad than Charter fishing is. They do have a bigger impact, and there is a lot of data on them. Trawlers do impact the biomass without a doubt though, and takes fish away from other users in allocation as if it was not used a bycatch it could be used for directed use. It could impact or slow a growth in the biomass, and of course could also help decrease it.

    Bycatch is a legal use for a fish. It allows you to pursue a target species when the reality is you will also catch other species....just like a charter using it to get clients to pay them for catching halibut. Charters and recreation boats also have bycatch in pursuit of their chosen target species. However Charters do it in the pursuit of money as well. So for Muttley to put out a petition that would clearly benefit him at the disadvantage of another commercial sector is disingenuous at best. How about I start one that says charters should be shut down until their effects on spiny dogfish, demersal shelf rockfish, and highgrading halibut were known, reduced, and eliminated? I wouldn’t actually support that, but would like to know more on those topics. They are real. Just as real as Chinook bycatch and Halibut bycatch is real for the trawlers. I’d like to see ALL bycatch for ALL species reduced for ALL sectors as outlined by the MSFMCA. I won’t, and neither should any of you, cherry pick one over another when the reality is that they all can be addressed.

    Now if you want to honestly talk about best use and shifting allocation to another user/sector then that's a whole different story. Allocation shifts can and do happen all the time within the framework of surplus yield. What people seem to confuse if the overall health of a natural stock and surplus yield.

    Or if you want to talk actual management then you’d realize bycatch by law must be reduced when possible to the extent practical. The council IS moving forward on amendments to limit the trawl sector, and there will likely be more. So what I think people want who’d sign that petition is actually already being done as I think people want rational, lawful, sustainable management done in a transparent, lawful way.
    Real concern about the issue should cause people to educate themselves, discuss issues with honesty, and facts. I do everything within my power to do that….do you? It takes time and effort, but the information is out there. There are real issues to be discussed, and they should be. I try not to get into who gets what usually, and just stick to facts. However, the Who Gets What part is the guy behind the curtain in most of these threads. Not everyone mind you, there are great posters with wide viewpoints on these forum, but enough just trying to get theirs at the expense of others to frustrate. I just want effective management to continue. I want science to do what it’s supposed to do……..provide the best data possible, and allow skilled, knowledgeable, vested people make lawful decisions from that data. I see this knee jerk reaction, and uniformed opinions percolating through the management for both that State and the Feds, and that worries me. I wish people would take the time to really, truly educate themselves if they care so much. Bycatch is being addressed, and will and should decrease. I’m all for it, and also responsible harvest for all users as outlined in law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    I want science to do what it’s supposed to do……..provide the best data possible, and allow skilled, knowledgeable, vested people make lawful decisions from that data.
    Yes, this is what I'm sure we all hope should happen. But a lot of us get frustrated when there seems to be so much incompetence in the people we put our faith in to stay on top of such things. Case in point....the brown bear problem here on the Kenai. Yes, they FINALLY decided to do something about it, but it took SO DA*M LONG for them to actually make it happen. And now it's the sh*ts because somebody couldn't make a decision when it needed to be done!

    Wait, I'm sorry....I take that back......Maybe I shouldn't say incompetence, as I'm sure these people really are smart. Maybe I should just say "HAVE THE BALLS" to make a decision that the science has told them needs to be made right NOW...!!! Let's don't wait until the moose are gone. Let's don't wait until the Kings are gone. Let's don't wait until the halibut are gone......
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Charter guys like Muttley need to get it together and stop making their industry look so silly. Banning one fishery for the benefit of another is all about allocation, and it deminishes the problems we actually do have with bycatch. It makes bycatch appear more as a tool for allocation grabbers than as the issue of waste it is.

    If the petition supported cleaner trawling (it's already very clean), or supported a program to utilize the bycatch for food, then I might consider signing. But even then, management is currently making huge leaps and bounds with regard to trawler bycatch regulation, and it would be a shame for any petition to undermine the good work taking place today. Folks, bycatch is legal under the MSA, and trawlers are trying to minimize it per those laws...If you've been on a trawler, you know they hate bycatch probably more than you.

    What particularly caused me to respond to this was Muttleys comment, "I use the resource the way it should be utilized". Not only is that presumptuous, but it doesn't look like Muttley is qualified to know how 320 million people should utilize their resource - for charters. I also got a kick out of his accusations that the halibut slot limits and the demise of the Kenai Kings were the trawler's fault. But I realize not every fisherman can be educated, and Muttleys mentality is what our fisheries are up against.
    Last edited by Brian M; 12-05-2012 at 16:26.

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