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Thread: All Around Short Carbine

  1. #1
    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Default All Around Short Carbine

    I've been pondering getting an all around, good for any critter carbine. I plan on using the gun for anything that walks, crawls, or slithers here in the Great State as well as for deer, elk and bear in Idaho. I plan on limiting my shots to 150 yds whereas 50 or less is the norm. I want to go with a 19 or 20" barrel in a ruger all weather, I think a bolt gun is the way to go for this project. I am going to go scopeless and am thinking of a full buckhorn rear and a red fiber optic out front. I am not totally decided on caliber yet. I have considered the 338 w.m., the 350 r.m., and the 338-06. I do not handload at this time and want to stay away from custom calibers for this reason and expense. This would probably elimanate the 338-06. Any thoughts on this project would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2

    Default carbine

    If you want a short barreled carbine as you described, I personally wouldn't go with the .338 Win Mag, as you would lose too much velocity/energy. The 350 Rem Mag does better in a short tube, but unless you handload, the ammunition is not that readily available and I believe only the 200 grain loading is currently available. In a barrel that short, in the gun you are limiting yourself to, I am hard pressed to recommend a cartridge good for anything that walks, especially if you don't want a round that is commercially available in most places. To tell the truth, for what you are describing, I would actually consider the Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun, for the ranges you describe, with a scout scope set-up, low power variable L.E.R. scope.

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    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Mauserboy
    I actually already have marlin 1895 in a 450. I shoot bolt guns better and am looking for an excuse to add another rifle to the arsenal. I would think that the 338 would only lose up to 150 fps. Not enough to worry about up close, especially if i shoot say a 250 grainer out of the 338.

  4. #4

    Default Short carbine

    Sounds like you need a .358 Win. or a .35 Whelen and a 20' tube. Lots of thump and 4 or 5 round magazine capacity.

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    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Default 358 vs. 338

    Wouldn't the 338 with a loss of velocity still hit harder with a 250 grain bullet than any of the medium 35's?

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    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Default 350 rm

    If I did go with the 350 rm, is there anywhere to get ammo besides Remington's 200 gr loads? Anybody do custom handloading for people around anchorage?

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    Default

    I have two 338's; one 26" and one 24". I wouldn't go any shorter than 24" in that round. If you ran it through a 20" barrel you are going to lose a ton of velocity and gain a ton of muzzle blast. The 338 was never meant to be a carbine round...

    I second 338 Mag's suggestion for the 35 Whelen. If you can wait for it to come out, I think the Ruger Hawkeye/Alaskan (20" barrel, Hogue stock, weatherproof finish) in 375 Ruger would fit your requirements even better...

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    Default Remington 750

    Remington makes a 750 with an 18 1/2" barrel in 35 Whelen. See below:
    35 Whelen (Carbine) 18 1/2" Satin Walnut 39 1/8" 7 1/4 27079 $831

    Ron

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    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Default 375?

    What would you guys think about a short barreled 375 H&H? Don't know a whole lot about it, hows the selection of factory ammo?

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    Default

    I gotta 2nd the idea about the whelen. I had a 7600 pump in 35whelen that I had the bbl shortened to 18" and loved it. especially now that supposedly factory ammo is gonna have some TBBC's loaded up.

  11. #11

    Talking Work with us

    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    Remington makes a 750 with an 18 1/2" barrel in 35 Whelen. See below:
    35 Whelen (Carbine) 18 1/2" Satin Walnut 39 1/8" 7 1/4 27079 $831

    Ron
    Big Swede: Ya gotta work with us on this. Velocity loss is unavoidable when one shortens the barrel to what you want. I second Grass Lake's suggestion and also the buckhorn and red fiber optic front. That's a combo on my .458 single and I love it. I find it every bit or maybe more accurate that my tang peep.
    PS: leave these Idaho animals alone...go lurk and loom somewhere else, cause if I run into you in these parts, I might have to buy the beer. Thanks. ciao.

  12. #12
    Member bigswede358's Avatar
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    Default No Whelen

    I'm going to stay away from the Whelen. I shot one for several years, its an excellent cartridge, but i've been there done that. I was researching some old posts and came across one that specifically dealt with shortening the 338 wm. Not a significant loss of velocity with handloads and about 100-150 with factory ammo in a shortie. There were also several owners of short 338's that said they oved them and they shot great. I think i'm leaning towards a 338 wm since I'm not set up to reload, otherwise a 338-06 would be a pretty deadly carbine.

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    Default

    Unless you form your own brass, the ONLY outfit that makes 338-06 brass/ammo is A-Frame, under the headstamp 338 A Frame. You can practically shake 350 Remington stuff out of a tree, as an availability comparison. Add to that 338-06 is way overpriced both as ammo and brass.

    Trust me, knock 4-6 inches off a 338 Magnum barrel and you'll burn 75 or more grains of powder to get the performance you will with a 35 Whelen or 338-06 with 56 or so grains out of a 20". There's no two ways around it.

    If you want to burn roughly 22-25% more powder (which is imparting muzzle blast/flash, not velocity) to get the next lower level of performance, have a ball. Makes no sense to me though.

    The only other round I can think of that meets what you are trying to do, is made for it, and makes sense, is the 338 Federal.

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    Default

    My 375 H&H only has a 20" barrel and it is an excellent combination of power and portablity. The 20" barrel really doesn't loose that much velosity with the shorter tube.

  15. #15
    Mark
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mauserboy View Post
    If you want a short barreled carbine as you described, I personally wouldn't go with the .338 Win Mag, as you would lose too much velocity/energy.......
    .338 WinMag, Browning Stainless Stalker, 2 1/2x Scout Scope (w/ quick release mounts), backup sights, 20" barrel.

    250 grain Nosler Partition in factory Federal Safari loads timed out at 2600 fps.

    Rifle weighs about 7 lbs as seen, and is 40" long.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16

    Default Steyr Scout

    You might consider the Scout in .376. What you describe is exactly what Jeff Cooper envisioned. No, I don't have one. Yes, I did have it in my hands at one point. Still kicking myself for leaving it behind.

  17. #17
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    Thumbs up Short hammer

    Nice scout there Mark.

    I have done some shooting of short barreled 338 WM and there is a lot of fire and flash from the short barrels but handloading with the right powder can help that a lot. I had a very nice Sako Battue with a 19.25" barrel and was able to get I think (I'll have to check my notes) 2650 fps from a 250 grain partition, so it can be done. Factory ammo may not be as good due to the slower powders they will typically use. I sold that Battue to Allen, maybe he can give us results with factory ammo.

    This is a moot point if you don't handload. The 338-06 is not a wildcat anymore, I believe it was A Square who got SAAMI acceptance of that round (not A frame) but brass and ammo is from A Square or Weatherby (Norma made) who made the only rifle for it. If you want a short light rifle with a 18-20" barrel the best performer will be the 358 Win caliber. In a short gun I would prefer that over the Whelen. I would also prefer a bolt rifle but if you go with a lever the 375 Win is probably the best choice or the 356 Win which is the 358 Win with a rim. Neither of them are very popular and factory ammo is like chicken lips.

    That 308 capacity case just doesn't loose much in an 18" barrel, and has everything going for it especially now that the 358 has once again being chamber in factory rifles. Ruger is supposed to bring that out in their Frontier rifle also. I have 1955 model of the Winchester M70 in a 358 f/w carbine which is worth the price of a new pickup if you're interested.

    Short handy carbines are very nice to carry and can be made into very useful hard hitting guns. Most benefit from judicious handloading, maybe you should start that hobby.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ak Steve View Post
    You might consider the Scout in .376. What you describe is exactly what Jeff Cooper envisioned. No, I don't have one. Yes, I did have it in my hands at one point. Still kicking myself for leaving it behind.
    Oh, yeah! Definately good choice. Wish I'd thought of that. I know a guy who has a MRC action with a 19" barrel in 376 Steyr. That is an efficient caliber in a short rifle.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  19. #19
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    A Frame, sheesh.... That's what I get for posting at 0415 hrs, before the first cup of coffee kicks in...

  20. #20
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ak Steve View Post
    You might consider the Scout in .376. What you describe is exactly what Jeff Cooper envisioned. No, I don't have one. Yes, I did have it in my hands at one point. Still kicking myself for leaving it behind.
    I built my "pseudo-scouts" long before Steyr built the .376.

    I couldn't afford a .376 Steyr then, and still can't now (even though I'd love to have one..............)

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