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Thread: Conflict Between G/O and The Everyday Joe?

  1. #1
    Member NDTerminator's Avatar
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    Default Conflict Between G/O and The Everyday Joe?

    The thread on the G/O who got nabbed for using his cub to make his point got me to thinking about this.

    Is conflict out in the bush on public land, between G/O and the everyday guy out hunting, a problem up there?

    Down here in ND, this type of conflict, and even more so between residents/ unguided NR is a very real issue. This happens in regard to the waterfowl and to a lesser extent, pheasant hunting, which is some of the best in the lawer 48. With the G/O's it's mostly an issue of leasing up as much private land as possible, while the resident/NR conflict is more a matter of competition on public land...

    Just wondering if this is something A guy will have to deal with. Hard to imagine given as big as Alaska is. BTW, down here I handle this with good scouting and neighbor relations, so I always have thousands of acres I can access. If there's someone on a spot I targeted when I get there, I just shrug it off and go to my next spot....

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    alaskas big, but only some of it can be accessed, only some areas have the quantities of game people want to see, thus alot of people will sometimes end up on one area...guides tend to be more protective because of their investement in the area, one time users tend to not really care much what happens after they leave, that'll bug some guides pretty bad. respect an area like you'll be there again and we'll all have better/cleaner and happier hunting.
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  3. #3

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    When it happens, its really UGLY. Access is the key root factor. It is extremely limited, with few good landing areas, close to concentrations of game. It is not uncommon to have it happen to you. Usually just threatening situations, but it sure puts a dampner on your trip. The best way to avoid this, but not totally, is to leave base camp as soon as possible, and get into the field. Work out of a spike camp and return at the last minute to base camp. Most confrontations I have experienced have been in base camps. Once in a blue moon, a guide will look around for you up in the hills and buzz you a time or two and the animals you are pursuing. It is a bad deal, but it happens. Keep a low profile and be prepared to de-escalate verbal confrontations. Perhaps this is a good subject for those teaching hunter education. Better to keep your cool in the field, rather than getting confrontational. Don't leave anything of real value in Base Camp. Don't rely on it being there when you get back. Bears and Bast---ds have a way of tearing stuff up or eating it.

  4. #4
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    I've heard of other minor problems, but even though I've hunted near operating guides, I've never experienced a problem. In fact, those guides were downright gentlemen and all around good wilderness neighbors (Virgil Umphenour and Joe Want).

    Other unguided hunters were more of a problem.

  5. #5
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Problems with guides

    The problems do exist, though thankfully not everywhere. There are a lot of contributing factors, as you might expect. Here's my take, for what it's worth.

    1. Posessive guides. Some of them are pretty protective of a place if they've been hunting it a long time. Especially if they risked their airplane to put in a strip or figure out how to land there. Some have storage permits to leave gear packed up and stored in the field, and they're concerned that folks will get into it. Sometimes the posessiveness goes over the top to the point that guides attempt to run hunters out of the area (which is illegal).

    2. Mistaken hunters. Sometimes hunters mistakenly assume that an area must be really good hunting because a guide is there. What they don't know is that sometimes guides end up in less than desirable areas because that's all that's left, and they'd have to go in on top of someone else if they went elsewhere.

    3. Rudeness and selfishness. Years ago I used to hunt a section of the Alaska Range for Dall sheep. It was a pretty good spot, surrounded by other pretty good spots that were outside our area and not really being worked by other guides. We had two resident hunters, each with their own airplane, who flew in and landed on the strip right in front of our camp. I offered to help them pull off a successful sheep hunt over the ridge, and was very polite and respectful, pointing out that they had as much a right to hunt "our" area as we did. I also mentioned that we had six hunters coming in that year and that everyone's hunt would be compromised if we all ended up in the same valley. They just blew it all off and took the best part of the hunting area for themselves, tracking it all up for three days before leaving to hunt the other area. It had a serious negative effect on the quality of our hunters' experience. What the two guys did was legal, but was, in my opinion, wrong and outright rude. But I showed them every courtesy and never told them they could not hunt the area. I thought they would be gentlemen and go to the other spot, but I was wrong.

    3. Illegal operators. Once in a while you run into someone who is illegally guiding. We had one that came in on top of us one year, a young guy with two older gentlemen. They probably had no idea that he was an illegal guide, but we picked up on it pretty quickly. It was an area that offered a good combination hunt for moose, caribou, black bear and grizzly. The "guide" and one of his hunters shot a nice bull caribou, got the antlers and cape packed in to camp (illegal to do until the meat is packed in), and then couldn't find the meat. It had snowed a few inches overnight, and he came over to our camp asking if it was okay to abandon the animal, since he couldn't find it. It was clear that he didn't have a clue about the regulations. Sometimes these guys are the most aggressive because they don't want you in the area spying on them. Most of the time we're not spying on them at all, and are just trying to stay out of their way, but as the book of Proverbs says, "The wicked flee when no one pursues."

    It has been my experience that as long as you do your homework, and try to avoid hunting on top of other folks, regardless of whether they're guided or not, it all works out fine. Just be respectful and offer the same courtesies you expect from people. Guides are limited on where they can hunt, but you have the whole state. Lots of room for everyone here.

    -Mike
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  6. #6

    Default Yes, I think there is a problem

    Yes I think ther is a problem developing up here in Alaska. I am hearing increasing stories of Hunter-Guide conflicts and I disaggree that "one time users tend to not really care much what happens after they leave" As i stated in a privious thread, I felt obligated to say that as a "civilian" public hunter I am not impressed by the increasing number of some of the more agressive, territorial guides I have run into. I believe that every guide caught harrassing or intimidating ANYONE should be dealt with in some manner relating to the degree of harrasment. This state is hard enough to hunt as it is. Nothing ruins a hunt faster than being harrased by someone. Respect your felow hunters especially the middle income average Joe seeking his own Alaskan adventure without paying the high price. As do it yourself hunters, we are not out to make a dollar we are out to make a memory. Mr. Lamb went too far, but there are many other guides walking the line close behind him. For all you guides, please think about your contact with the public hunters. And for all you average Joe hunters, respect the guides and the land you are hunting on even if you don't plan on returning. All it takes is common courtesy and respect for your fellow sportsman/landuser.

    It is time for the Alaska hunters to stand up and defend their right to legally hunt ANY public land in ALaska. I do not believe anybody has a right to defend their "territory" be that person a guide or a native/local by harrassing another hunter. Interfering with a legal public hunt is a crime in all states and should be inforced. I don't think I need to skulk out of camp and set up spike camps to avoid confrontation. It is up to the professional guides to act professional and leave other legal hunting camps alone! It would be simply repulsive to the sport If I can't leave anything of real value in camp because I was worried about a guide taking it! Alaska is the Lat Frontier and the day I have to put a "club" on the yolk of my airplane is the day the "frontier" is no more and we are on par with the urban ways of New York.

  7. #7
    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    guides tend to be more protective because of their investement in the area, one time users tend to not really care much what happens after they leave, that'll bug some guides pretty bad.
    So aside from federal lands with exclusive guide areas, what investment do guides have in area? If it's not producing, they can just move on. I've seen far more trash and impact in the field from guides than I have from resident, drop-off hunters. Examples of such are old caches that have been dug up and spread around by animals, trails cut in, trees/brush cut, and latrines/piles of **** left unburied. Personal experience in the areas I hunt tends to show that this behavior is perpetrated by guides more than resident hunters.

    I should add that I have never had any personal conflicts in the field with guides, in fact I have been helped out by them a few times and even have traded some info with a few of them, but in the areas I hunt, they tend to leave a bigger impact on the land than resident hunters.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    chisana, i guess i should rephrase what i said, your right about some guides leaving a mess, guides are people too....most the time.

    if an area isn't producing game, chances are they only guided there until they figured that out, what i was refering to was a guide who has an area he's working, he needs that area to keep producing for years to come, hence the trophy hunting, if they care about the clients at all they'll police up their trash and messy areas and be wise stewards with the land they are on, my land use permits dont' let me cut brush or trees or cache stuff, i would random a guess that outfitters who are doing that might not even have a land use permit, which ALOT of them don't. but no one enforces that regualation so why should they care right?! becasue my camps are all on permit, i have to make sure that if something does happen to the area, that its not by anything me or my clients have done.

    But your right, guides do make a mess as well, i've just seen more messes from DIY hunters and hear that complaint from the private land holders in the areas that i do guide.
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  9. #9

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    Brwnbr, after reading your posts I would have to suggest that you are not the kind of guide that would make a bad name for the guiding industry, in fact it seems that there are probably quite a few good guides like you and Mike S. that most likely are the the norm. It only takes one jackass to make a bad name for the entire bunch. We need to police these guys up and keep the sport healthy in the eyes of everyone. I would have no trouble recommending a guide like you to friends and relatives outside.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    'preciate the kind words,i'm sure alot of the guides out there that are just as ticked at the guides that blackeye the industry as I am. slowly but surely the crop will get weeded out i suppose. But when this kinda stuff hits the paper and the internet it really has a vide of slammin' on guiding, rather than THE guide in question. Hate to see things taken in such a huge generalization....no one likes to be steryotyped when it don't apply.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chisana View Post
    ......I've seen far more trash and impact in the field from guides than I have from resident, drop-off hunters. Examples of such are old caches that have been dug up and spread around by animals, trails cut in, trees/brush cut, and latrines/piles of **** left unburied. Personal experience in the areas I hunt tends to show that this behavior is perpetrated by guides more than resident hunters....
    That has not been my experience at all, but that may be because I hunt areas where many non-guided hunters hunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    'preciate the kind words,i'm sure alot of the guides out there that are just as ticked at the guides that blackeye the industry as I am. slowly but surely the crop will get weeded out i suppose......
    I got dropped on top of guide Joe Want and his client on Kodiak Island by an air taxi operator. We were hunting deer, and he had a client looking for bear. We stayed at a Native owned cabin, and they stayed at an old cannery cabin a few hundred yards away.

    The weather was so nasty that the winds seemed to slow down to 40 mph with 60 mph gusts during the day. We hunted hard.

    Joe and his client didn't hunt until the day we left, which was the first day an airplane could fly. It was nearly two weeks that we were there. Joe said that the weather made it not worthwhile. He may have been too gracious to say that with us out there stinking the place up, it was no use.

    He greeted us every evening when we came back from hunting. We treated him and his client to fresh venison regularly. We told him of bear sign we saw at our gutpiles. He shared stories with us. He traded tips on various things. He was a true gentleman, joker, and just fun to have around.

    One night a member of our party didn't return by sunset one day. Joe led the search for him, and found him making his way back to camp late.

    I'm not sure how happy his client was. Maybe he didn't want to go out in that weather, either. Nor am I aware of the financial arrangements made as a result of that guided hunt.

    But I can attest that Joe Want is among the finest people I've ever run across in the woods, and Byron Lamb could learn much from him.

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    As always, thanks for the answer guys. I'm beginning to figure out who is who here, and I have to say I'm impressed with the manner in which the G/O's and longtime residents who have responded to my questions present themselves. Very professional & helpful, great ambassadors for Alaska...

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    my expereince with want was a bit different but thats another story, nothing really to discredit him, just was a mite disrespectfull, but this was not in the field.
    Rumor goes that Want would only hunt when the wind was right for the valley, it it was wrong, he wouldn't go out, he also had the highest skull average on the island for years. It sounds as though he understood your dilema and didn't blame you which is very mature, gotta respect a guy for treating you well in adverse conditions, says alot for Mr. Want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ........Rumor goes that Want would only hunt when the wind was right for the valley, it it was wrong, he wouldn't go out, he also had the highest skull average on the island for years....
    "Wind was right" doesn't come close to describing what we endured.

    When I wrote about the wind "slowing" down to 45-60 during the day, I really mean it.

    We had winds at night that I was sure was going to blow us off to oblivion. I could see the poor, little structure twist in the gusts, especially at night watching the corners of the sills. I'll bet the gusts were in the 100 mph range.

    It sounds as though he understood your dilema and didn't blame you which is very mature, gotta respect a guy for treating you well in adverse conditions, says alot for Mr. Want.
    He was standing outside their little cabin when we landed. Came right over.

    Nice guy. Nothing but class.......

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    ya 45 on kodiak appears to be "breezy" pushing 60-70 is gets "windy" and over 80, its "blowin' pretty good out..."

    gotta love the island, one my favorite places.

    Want offered his guide area to the outfitter i was working for when he sold out on kodiak, my boss turned it down and Carl Brent got it and took like 8 out 10 bears that were over 10', seen pics of some of them, two years later, lost the permit...bummer.
    never been to the south end, only the north half..someday.
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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default Joe Want

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ya 45 on kodiak appears to be "breezy" pushing 60-70 is gets "windy" and over 80, its "blowin' pretty good out..."

    gotta love the island, one my favorite places.

    Want offered his guide area to the outfitter i was working for when he sold out on kodiak, my boss turned it down and Carl Brent got it and took like 8 out 10 bears that were over 10', seen pics of some of them, two years later, lost the permit...bummer.
    never been to the south end, only the north half..someday.
    I saw Joe at the Fairbanks Outdoor Show last weekend and I've gotta say that the man has amassed a huge wealth of brown bear knowledge. I'm impressed that he's willing to share his considerable expertise with anyone willing to give a listen.

    Hopefully some day he'll write a book on this stuff.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
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    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
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  18. #18

    Default Where to start...

    ... a buddy and I got drawn for Spring Bear on Afognak/Shuyak (DB292). My assumption/hope is than w/only 17 tags available we won't be tripping over (and tripped upon by) other hunters. My fear is that we'll all take a look at the topos and key in on similar areas that seem promising. I'm not asking for info on secret spots, etc but I'm curious if anyone (particularly the guides on the forum) could offer any insight..

    More than just a successful hunt, I'd like it to be pleasant and enjoyable.

    Thanks

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    I have hunted here for 33 years and I don't think we have that kind of a problem here.

    Just keep in mind the laws have been written for the guides, by the guides.

    If the "Average Joe" conducts himself accordingly -- no problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bustedknee View Post
    ...Just keep in mind the laws have been written for the guides, by the guides.

    If the "Average Joe" conducts himself accordingly -- no problems.

    hmmmm... "Yes Mr Guide, No Mr. Guide, thank you Mr. Guide, sorry Mr. Guide. Sorry to have bothered you. I'll go somewhere else."... "Oh, and when will you be returning home to the lower 48? Enjoy your stay in Alaska."

    Would this be conducting ones self accordingly? It seems like it from some of the stories I hear. I'm sure not all guides are like others but a few bad apples can sure make it hard for the decent guys to keep a good reputation.
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