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Thread: pump and auto rifle ?

  1. #1

    Default pump and auto rifle ?

    I often see used pump and semi-auto rifles on the market. Is there a reason that the pumps and autos are not popular? Are there mechanical/accuracy issues with these types of actions??

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    Robert

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Well- auto rifles are extremely popular- ie. the AR15 type rifles.

    But in a more typical big game rifle not so much and pump rifles have a small but pretty dedicated following...in AK? again, not so much.

    The auto rifles are more finicky and prone to failure regardless of maker and pump rifles have weaker primary extraction but I think the real issue is simply market acceptance.

    Western hunting rifles are much more often than not in the consumer's eye- bolt actions.
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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Pumps and Semi's are somewhat more popular in the north-eastern brush country. I've seen less of them up here. I always did admire the Browning Pump Rifle, but it's never been a "need" and barely a "want". The BPR had a free floated barrel, and held four in the magazine. There was one particular model called the "dualis" that is very rare. It was a sleek looking carbine rifle and was somewhat European looking, that model had a 20" barrel. The BPR's are very reliable rifle, and accurate too. If you should see a used BPR for a decent price, grab it up, you won't be disappointed.

    Here's an image of the Dualis Carbine. I was avail for sale in limited quantities in the US, but predominantly sold overseas:

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    Western hunting rifles are much more often than not in the consumer's eye- bolt actions.
    And I think a lot of that is due to the perception of better accuracy. Bolt actions are simple tools that are easy to make very accurate. Back East your not likely to ever shoot over 100 yards so fine accuracy wasnít ever much concern there. In the West things are much more open and shots tend to be much longer because you see game way off and have little cover to stalk in on them.

    Not that pumps/autos/etc canít be made very accurate also but there is a lasting perception that bolts are more accurate. And so the bolt rifle became king because everyone wants better accuracy, if they need it or not. Eventually almost all hunting rifles made are bolts and itís hard to find anyone that knows how to do anything at all to another action type. Iím sure glad the AR craze came along to show that autos can shoot straight too, it has done wonders to diversify the gun world . . . now there is interest in all kinds of almost forgotten stuff like pump rifles.
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    Member gunbugs's Avatar
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    Usually the problem I see with commercially available semi auto hunting rifles is lack of maintenance leading to a variety of functioning issues. Many of the firearms, and I'm not talking the AR type platform here, are difficult for the owner to disassemble and clean. Many are also very prone to stoppages due to dirt, dust, or poor lubrication, or a combination of all the above. The Remington autoloaders come to mind as a prime example. Not user friendly if you need to remove the bolt for cleaning. The Browning BAR is only marginally better, as it is a finely made piece, and requires regular cleaning to remain reliable, and won't function with moderate amounts of dust or dirt in the action. The US military rifles, M-14 type and M-1 are pretty good, but folks like "pretty" guns, and view the military guns as too heavy. I could go on, but to cut it short, the commercial guns aren't very "robust".
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    I have a buddy I've hunted with, on and off, for many many years and he swears by his Rem 7600 '06 and I'd hate to have to count all the deer he's killed but when he started hunting elk in the canyons of Snake River years ago he had me procure a bolt gun in 7mm Rem Mag - My son purchased a Benelli R-1 or an employee last year for a Christmas bonus because that is what the guy said he wanted, I talk to him all the time and asked him how it shoots - He's handloading for it and 2 1/2" @ 100 is "his" best (300 WSM)

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    I have two Remington aoutoloaders. The 742 from the 60's. It was my Grandmas gun. She had a hard time working the action on a bolt rifle for a second shot. That old gun shoots reliably if you feed it factory 180g corlocks. It is not accurate. Also, if those early 740 and 742 rifles wear out, there is no fixing the action. The later models don't have that problem I hear. I have the newer autoloader in 35 whelen. It feeds handloads reliably only if they are not hopped up. Again, factory ammo shoots fine. They are clunky in the field and loud to load-up. I don't like to loan it out because it takes some getting used to as far as working the action and safety. I am afraid my buddy will be doinking around with it and shoot me in the head. That being said, once you are accustomed to it, the gun is very fast and fun to shoot. I can put 5 shots onto a 12 inch piece of plywood at 100 yards off hand quicker than I can fire two shots with any of my large caliber bolt rifles. You lose some accuracy over the bolt action for quick shots with follow-up using the autoloader. I don't think they are reliable enough for Dangerous game. Bolt action, control round feed, big caliber for that work.

    I think if I really wanted an autoloader for shots under 100 yards up here I would get a 458 socom. Reliable platform and a heavy Barnes bullet sounds like good Moose medicine to me.

    If I was in the woods and brush and not overly concerned with the BIG fuzzies up here, I would carry my Remington autoloader more often. As it is, I use it for a boat gun sometimes. Mostly, I make a hell of a mess out of rocks and logs with it when we are bored on the river bank in the summer. I think they are not popular up here because they are kind of a PIA really and quite expensive to shoot since you put so many rounds down range. You can go through a box of shells in nothing flat and they aint as cheap as a 223 round (even hand loaded).

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    When I moved up here the main rifle I brought was a 1988 Remington 7600 pump in .35 Whelen. With the right loads it has always been the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. It is extremely fast shooting and points the same as my 870's. It will never be for sale as long as I am around.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: pump and auto rifle ?

    Thanks for the info, I am kind of interested in the pumps, I shoot left handed and they seem like a good option.

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    I have never switched it but I do believe the safety on the 7600 can be switched to lefty. I am sure a 870 can and it is the same thing. but don't quote me on it.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/463...870-1100-11-87

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  11. #11

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    I've owned both over the years, and been around lots more. The points made so far are pretty much on the money. In general the autos are more finicky about clean, and they definitely have their pick of ammo. I found them pretty challenging to develop loads for.

    The pumps are another matter. I'm a lefty too, and like you, I spent a lot of time messing with alternatives to the very few lefty bolt guns and calibers available since I started shooting lots in the early 1960's. The selection is still pretty sketchy today, compared to what righties can grab right off the rack.

    I've found the pumps to be quite reliable, even when dirty and with a wide range of ammo. My only issue with them started when I quit shooting pump shotguns. It wasn't quite so "natural" to shuck a shell any more.

    Lotta good calibers out there. I have a couple I wouldn't part with and can recommend you watch for. One is a 257 Roberts. It really does want 2.75" OAL, and you can't stretch it much. But man, is it a shooter and fine performer. My best loads don't get below an inch, but it's pretty easy to drop below 1.5" groups with a lot of loads. The other is a 280 Remington. It's a super mix of quick handling for close work and long range trajectory and accuracy. It's right in there with the 257 for accuracy, too. Can't find a scarce 257? Go for a 6mm. Can't find a 280? Go for a 270. You and the game likely won't know the difference.

    I'd stay clear of the carbine models. I had a 760 in 06, and that thing just didn't work out for me. It fit me poorly, barked loudly, and shot poorly. If I was to add any more 760's to my stable, one would be a standard 06 and the other would be a 35 Whelen.

    BTW- One thing worth searching for. Once upon a time someone (Maybe Williams, maybe Marble, or maybe someone else) made replacement left-handed safeties for them. I put them on my rifles and it made a huge difference for me. But I did it so long ago, I can't be sure who made them. Maybe a google romp would find you one.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I think one big reason some folks sell their pumps and semi's is because folks Tell them they need a bolt action. At boot camp in 65 I learned I could shoot minuet of man at five hundred yards with a peep sight which is something many have problems with using a good bolt gun with scope.When the legend is better than the facts print the legend.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    I like my FN-FAL.
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    I used a Benneli R-1 in 300 win mag for years with some success. I changed to a bolt gun, because the auto loader was heavy, required more maintenance and was not all that accurate beyond 300 yards. I also used a Remington pump and also found that it was not that accurate beyond 300 yards. As my skills and tolerance for recoil increased, I found a bolt gun was a better fit for me.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    I tried giving a 7600 308 patrol carbine a fighting chance, but it was junk. It wouldn't group any ammo into a group no better than about 6" at 100 yds. Switched to a Burris 3-12 XTR tactical scope with the paralax ajusted for 100 yds accuracy test.....still no accuracy. Frequently, the rifle would jam, even with the other two factory magazines I purchased trying to solve the problem. There are two uncaptured pins that the rotating bolt uses. One pin is only held in place by the little plastic ejection port shroud. The thing was heavy(over 7lbs), my savage 99 with a 20 in. barrel doesn't weigh as much as that rifle did with a 16 in. barrel. I've no qualms with the BPR though! That rifle is in a different league.

  16. #16

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    Being a lefty and growing up shooting pump shotguns, I find the Rem 760 & 7600 much easier to shoot than my LH rifles.
    And they are accurate, have a 7600 35 Whelen, and a custom 760 06.

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    For hunting I like to use bolt actions, but for self defense (bear defense) I like to use pump or lever actions rifles. I will say though, that eventually I do plan on getting a auto (obviously) 1911 re chambered for .460 Rowland for bear defense. Not to say that Autos or pump/levers dont make good hunting rifles, I just like the simplicity of Bolt guns for big game hunting purposes.

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    I have two M8 Rem autos and both always work with most any load. Accuracy with the iron sights and my eyes is a 2" to 3" thing. Plenty good for the 200yd 35Rem. I also have a M100 Win in 308 but I haven't used it much. It seems to work ok.

  19. #19
    Member bigdog's Avatar
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    I have a Remington 760 in .308 and it is one of the best guns I have ever had or will have, it shoots all ammo well and the hand loads I have for it is 165 grain nosler partitions and it will shoot better than one inch groups with it... It was my fathers gun, then he sold it to my uncle and he gave it to me for my sixteenth birthday, my dad has killed several deer with it, I have a couple on wall from that gun and my little brother has killed animals with it too.... So like Daveinthebush said it will never get sold as long as I am around.... plus it has been to alaska a couple different times.... I have no problem with the pumps or autos if they are in a short caliber like the .308 or .243.... My buddy has an 30-06 auto and it is basically a single shot becuz the casing always gets stuck when it is getting kicked out....

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Remington sold over 1.3 million 760's from 52 to 80. I would think they have sold close to than many of the newer models the last 32 years.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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