Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Common misunderstanding of ALASKA night flying exception

  1. #1
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default Common misunderstanding of ALASKA night flying exception

    I ran into something interesting today... a pilot who earned his private back in the summer of 1993, and has always had NO NIGHT FLYING on his license because he only had half the required night training from a well known Anchorage flying school. They kicked him loose and he never went back for more hours,,, BECAUSE NOBODY EVER TOLD HIM....
    The FAA also made the situation worse by issuing him a new plastic license a couple years ago when we all had to admit we spoke English....

    NOW, he is applying for a Sea Plane rating,,,, but guess what??? His license has not been valid for the last 18 years...!!!!!

    We here is Alaska cannot avoid the night flying part of the license forever. You only get 12 months to fix your night flying training or else your license becomes INVALID...


    A medical night flying prohibition is different...





    Subpart E--Private Pilots

    Sec. 61.110

    Night flying exceptions.

    (a) Subject to the limitations of paragraph (b) of this section, a person is not required to comply with the night flight training requirements of this subpart if the person receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska.
    (b) A person who receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska but does not meet the night flight training requirements of this section:
    (1) May be issued a pilot certificate with a limitation "Night flying prohibited;" and
    (2) Must comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within the 12-calendar-month period after the issuance of the pilot certificate. At the end of that period, the certificate will become invalid use until the person complies with the appropriate night training requirements of this subpart. The person may have the "Night flying prohibited" limitation removed if the person--
    (i) Accomplishes the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart; and
    (ii) Presents to an examiner a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor that verifies accomplishment of the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart.
    [(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as
    appropriate.]
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  2. #2

    Default

    Oops. Probably a bit of a pain to sort out now... So he will need the 3 hours training within 90 days, will have to retake the written exam...and obviously should do the night training ahead of time this time to get it out of the way...then he just goes back to retest?
    14 Days to Alaska
    Also available on Kindle and Nook

  3. #3
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    All my friend has to do is go find a CFI who wants to fly with him at night. ( we have 75 knot winds aloft in my area tonight, so I can't do it)
    Then make sure all the night requirements for his old private ( 3 hours of dual to include a 100 mile cross country and 10 full stop landings at an airport using the traffic pattern) are signed off by a CFI and then go to an examiner or FSO and just have them administratively removed the night flying prohibition.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  4. #4
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    I would love for somebody to tell me that they have seen an old letter of interpetation or some darn thing from the FAA that grandfathers pilots before a certain date when it comes to the night flying restriction and the need to get the training within 12 months.
    At one time it was not just Alaska that had that option.....
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  5. #5
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    MAYBE SOME LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL !!!!!!


    OK I found something on the FAA questions and answers site. It took hours to read through it all.

    FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS 14 CFR, PART 61
    ARRANGED BY SECTION
    MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640 Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472 E-Mail:
    K.Allan.Pinkston@faa.gov

    Re: Questions Concerning § 61.110 of the Federal Aviation Regulations

    Dear Mr. Ballew:


    Tim Titus forwarded your email message to him regarding § 61.110 to me and asked me to respond.

    As you know, § 61.110(b) provides, in relevant part, that a person who receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska but does not meet the night flight training requirements of this section: (1) may be issued a pilot certificate with a limitation “Night flying prohibited” and (2) must comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within the 12-calendar month period after the issuance of the pilot certificate. At the end of that period, the certificate will become invalid for use until the person complies with the appropriate night training requirements of this subpart.

    The first question you posed was whether a person who added an ASES rating to his certificate (that was issued prior to August 7, 1997 with a night flying restriction) needed to comply with the night flying requirements within a year. You indicated that Allen Pinkston, AFS-640 said that he would have to satisfy the night flying training requirements. You asked if this was correct. Mr. Pinkston's statement is correct.

    In the preamble to the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that covered this particular regulation, the FAA stated:

    “However, a person who has been issued a pilot certificate without meeting the night flying requirements of this proposal, prior to effective date of this rule, would be allowed to continue to hold that pilot certificate with the night flying limitation. If the person seeks an additional rating or higher pilot certificate level, the person would be required to comply with the night flying requirements that are appropriate to the pilot certificate level.”

    Therefore, the person who adds a seaplane rating to his “old” certificate that has a night flying restriction must comply with the night flying training requirements. If he is takes his training in and resides in Alaska, he will have a period of one year from the date of issue of the “new” certificate in which to obtain the training. If he does not, his certificate is no longer valid. Any “grandfather privileges” are gone. If he did not take his training in and does not reside in Alaska, he must complete the night training prior to issuance of the new rating.

    As to your other questions concerning lost certificates or change of address, the fact that the replacement certificate has a new issue date would not trigger a requirement to comply with the night flying training requirements as the pilot has not added an additional rating or obtained a higher certificate level. He is simply replacing his lost certificate or changing his address. During a ramp check were an inspector to question the validity of that certificate, the pilot should explain that his certificate was issued to replace a lost certificate or to change his address on a certificate that was actually issued prior to August 4, 1997. He also might consider keeping a copy of his correspondence requesting the duplicate or change of address.

    You next asked about an individual who obtains a Private Pilot certificate ( I assume with ASEL rating) with the night flying prohibition and who, within a year, applies for and obtains an added rating (ASES). Then he gets an instrument rating, followed by an AMEL rating. At each stage, he is issued a new certificate with a new issue date. I understand your question to be “At what point does he have to comply with the night flying training requirements.

    He must comply with the night flying training requirements for ASE within one year of the date he obtained the private pilot certificate. Once the ASE night flying training requirement is completed, e.g. for ASEL, there is no additional night training requirement for an ASES rating. Neither is there a night flying training requirement for the instrument rating. The night flying training requirements for the other additional rating, i.e., AME, must be obtained within one year of the date the AME additional rating is obtained. If he fails to comply with the night flying training requirement when each is due, his certificate will be invalid for use when the first due date is missed. Where the training was not timely obtained for earlier ratings, the fact that the certificate is invalid for use may not be apparent to anyone examining the certificate and looking only at the issue date. Absent examination of the pilot's logbook or some other investigation, discovery by anyone of the fact of invalidity is probably unlikely. Indeed, until a year has passed without any upgrade or added rating, the casual observer may have no indication that the certificate he is examining is invalid for use.

    You also asked, “What about an individual who no longer resides in Alaska as required by FAR § 61.110? The regulation permits issuance of a restricted certificate to a person who takes his training in and resides in Alaska. The regulation permits a period of 12 months following issuance during which the person must get the night flying training. An individual who took his training in and was a legal resident of Alaska at the time he was issued the certificate with the “night flying prohibited” restriction based on § 61.110 who later changes his residency to another state within the 12 month period following issuance would still have until the end of the 12 month period to obtain the night flying training.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  6. #6

    Default

    Are you sure its 100 nm's. My night cross country was from anch to talkeetna and that counted, I have no astrix on my licence.

  7. #7

    Default

    It has to be over 100 nm total distance, but it can be to a location 51 nm away and back and meet that requirement.
    14 Days to Alaska
    Also available on Kindle and Nook

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    Hey, Float Pilot - - - - - my license (1368045, ASEL, ASES, Inst) has no night flying restrictions noted; and my logs show several thousand hours of night flight. Do I understand that the IR makes further night flight training unnecessary ???

  9. #9
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    Nope that is not what I am saying, or at least trying t figure out....

    Prior to Aug 1997, night flying was optional for a US private pilost license. Something I never heard mentioned...

    Anyway private pilots could get a license that said "no night flying" and it was OK...

    In Aug 1997, the regs were changed to require night instruction.... But here in Alaska, the CFIs and DPE's lobbied enough so the rule for Alaska gave to pilots a 12 month period to complete the night flying training. (due to the summer hours)

    Furthermore: at one time the FAA said that the old pre-1997 " no night flight" pilots were grand-fathered forever, since that is how the law was back when they earned their license.

    Now there is no mention of the grand-father claus in the regulations....

    My thought is that they are still grand-fathered unless they add an additional or higher rating. (which is what the old FAA opinion says)

    HOWEVER, my DPE claims that all that may have flown out the window when they went to the new International regs a couple years ago... (when they made us put the words English Profient on our licenses so some airport yahoo in Latin America (who does not speak english) would be able to tell we had a valid license.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  10. #10
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    Well, I asked the same question with FAA NATIONAL.. HQ. They passed the Buck to Anchorage FISDO,,,,,,,, or rather had me do it....
    Nobody working there has been around long enough to know what the old regulations were.....

    So far the answer has been to simply have my client do his night hours (which we have done since we could not do his flipping SES check-ride)
    No word on how to get that info into the system....

    As to the original question ( ARE ALL THE PRE-1997 PILOT INVALID NOW, IF THEY DON'T HAVE NIGHT HOURS? ) nobody wants to answer that one....
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  11. #11
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    How things are going so far:

    THE FAA
    Your local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) can give the best answer to your question. Their personnel will evaluate your question along with any specific issues you may have. You can find contact information for your local FSDO on our website at: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/
    ME:
    I also passed the buck along to Anchorage FISDO..... HOWEVER, it is a National question......
    Prior to Aug 1997 anyone in the U.S.A. could obtain a private license without having night training. Thus they were Night Flight Prohibited.
    As a CFI I have met several from all over the country. So the question remains: Are all of these old (no night flight) pilots grand-fathered or did they all become invalid when the regulation changed?
    In the old FAA questions and answers ,, Alan Pinkston remarked that those old pilots were OK until they added a new rating. But the current regs say nothing about it and nobody since the old days of Alan Pinkston seems to want to give a yes or no answer...
    THE FAA:
    We have forwarded your question to the appropriate FAA office for evaluation. We will send our reply to your question as soon as possible.

    Thank you for your question.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,461

    Default

    As to the FAA's ducking, bobbing, and weaving - - - it sounds like our gummint in action ................................. !

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •