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Thread: Heavy bullet for 300 Win Mag?

  1. #1
    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Default Heavy bullet for 300 Win Mag?

    Do you have any sources for extremely heavy (for caliber) .308 diameter bullets that would be acceptable for use on Alaskan big game? My buddy is having over penetration problems and is convinced that he needs a heavier bullet to decrease his percentage of run aways.

    Comments, hints, tips, suggestions?
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    New member George's Avatar
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    Default heavier?

    I guess I may be missing something here- so the response may not be for the right question.... If your buddy is placing bullets in the right zone and the animals are going some distance I would think he may need to re-think why that is. An overly heavy-for-caliber bullet simply by its nature, higher SD and lower velocity, all other things being equal about construction, usually imparts a smaller wound channel and penetrates deeper. That usually does not kill or disable quicker. If he is using fairly light-for-caliber bullets that are frangible at the increased velocities they may not be penetrating enough and causing mostly superficial tissue damage. That would not get the job done well either. I think a compromise of all factors would be the best approach- maybe a 180 grain controlled expanding bullet for normal 300 Mag velocities where the penetration is adequate for the game intended AND the wound channel large enough to quickly disable and kill. I'd look at bullet placement (shooting accuracy, kill zone knowledge, etc.), bullet weight and bullet construction, all together... each affecting the others... for the best result. Hope I interpreted the question correctly.
    Last edited by George; 04-19-2007 at 21:27.

  3. #3
    Mark
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    I'm wondering what "extremely heavy" means.

    Heavier than 220 grains?

    What game is being overpenetrated? Are the rounds being used shooting right through the boiler room of a moose, or a blacktail deer?

    Are the bullets being used well known for expansion?

    For example, I'd be amazed if Swift A-Frames could overpenetrate, unless they're being used on small dogs.

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    Default ??????

    I don't follow this. Over penetration means the bullet exited, right? That isn't bad. Maybe a better term would be under expansion. If a soft point expanding bullet exits and leaves a small hole it likely didn't expand or if so not enough or not soon enough.

    This is more a function of velocity than weight, though heavier bullets go slower. Heavier soft points will expand less, all else considered, due to the lower impact velocity and almost always penetrate more than lighter bullets. Expansion reduces penetration. Higher impact velocity increases expansion. (given common bullet construction)

    If we are having exits with small holes, no torn hide, we need to go to softer, more lightly constructed bullets and drive them at higher velocity.

    If we are using Swift A-frames or Barnes TSX, go to Nosler partitions or Kodiak bonded. Also going to round nose or flat nose will help to initiate expansion and reduce penetration somewhat.

    A super heavy 250 grain 30 cal bullet will penetrate a whole herd of caribou before coming to rest on the tundra.
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  5. #5
    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    No, you guys all got it right. He wants the heavy bullet because it will reduce velocity, my suggestion was to use something like the Swift A Frame or Nosler Partition and just reduce the charge.

    Maybe I can get him to register...
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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Heavier than 220 grains? Yes, barnes had a 250 grain 308, but it was in the original X bullet thats not offered anymore.

    What game is being overpenetrated? Are the rounds being used shooting right through the boiler room of a moose, or a blacktail deer? Moose, Caribou, Black Bear IIRC. Yes, he is a good shot with lots of big game under his belt.

    Are the bullets being used well known for expansion? Yes, not sure what all he has tried, but when I suggested he try the A-Frame he said he had already tried that.
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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    I don't follow this. Over penetration means the bullet exited, right? . He says that everything he shoots "runs away, a long way away".

    If we are using Swift A-frames or Barnes TSX, go to Nosler partitions or Kodiak bonded. Also going to round nose or flat nose will help to initiate expansion and reduce penetration somewhat. I'll suggest the Kodiak Bonded, I dont know if he has tried the Nosler, but Im guessing that he has.

    A super heavy 250 grain 30 cal bullet will penetrate a whole herd of caribou before coming to rest on the tundra. I agree!

    For the most part I am mostly just trying to find him some heavier bullets since he is confident they are the next step in his path to making his 300 do what he wants it to do. You all have confirmed what I have thought to be the case though. I guess I can read a book, surf the internet, and watch TV at the same time afterall. (I read the book during comercials, and watch TV while I'm waiting on my dial up to download a new page)
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  8. #8
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgreen View Post
    Heavier than 220 grains? Yes, barnes had a 250 grain 308, but it was in the original X bullet thats not offered anymore.
    The Barnes was that heavy because it was solid brass. Poor expansion. I'm not sure that would help. It sounds like what is needed is a bullet that will expand well without breaking up.

    What game is being overpenetrated? Are the rounds being used shooting right through the boiler room of a moose, or a blacktail deer? Moose, Caribou, Black Bear IIRC. Yes, he is a good shot with lots of big game under his belt.
    By overexpansion, does he mean exiting?

    Are the bullets being used well known for expansion? Yes, not sure what all he has tried, but when I suggested he try the A-Frame he said he had already tried that.
    That's remarkable. A-Frames are known for retaining weight at the 95% level and simply expanding more and more with more and more velocity.

    And a moose has a lot of mass in which to expand. I don't know if you can get much more than 25 inches of penetration with a .308 A-Frame at 3000 fps. A 200 grain bullet from a 300 WinMag should be running less than 3000 fps (unless he's cooking up hot loads, and if that's the case, then the answer to overpenetration should be obvious).

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    Default &^%#$^#

    bgreen.

    I don't mean to rattle your cage, you are the go between here, but you are bringing a handful of confusion. George is right and he said it so well.

    The only Barnes bullet that ever weighed 250 grains (in 30 cal) is/was the Original "O" bullet, I still have some on my bench. They are no longer made. The "O" will out penetrate a freight train.

    Repeat after me...Heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter bullets and higher impact velocity increases expansion and limits penetration.

    The best bullets for this situation, if it is a bullet problem, is something similar to the Barnes "O" bullet, but not a heavier bullet. The Hawk bullets are the closest thing to the "O " bullets. They are soft copper and they expand very well and retain high percentages of weight. They are not bonded, the soft annealled copper allowed the jacket to stretch without tearing and that helps them stay together. They will expand to .75" with an impact velocity of 2400 fps. (200 grain from 30-06) Normally a 300 Win doesn't need such a bullet due to it's higher velocity. It will make a trophy bonded bearcalw expand in a spring buck.

    I don't know what the problem is with animals running way off after the shot but "over penetration" cannot be the issue. Lack of expansion could be but not likely with the caliber. That brings us to the last and likely weakest link in the chain.....marksmanship. Put the bullet, any bullet from a 300 mag, where it should go and it will work. However, as anyone with field experience knows, even well hit animals rarely ever drop at the shot. Most will run for some distance, some will walk into the nearest slew and go down, some will stand there for a while then tip over and some will thrash around on the ground and growl. None of these actions are indicative of over penetration. What, does your friend just want to recover his bullets? I can understand that, hey they make a nice necklace. Or you can epoxy them to the plack under the trophy mount, lot's of interesting stuff here. I just don't think I've heard many complaints about the field performance of the 300 Winchester magnum, this is a new one.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default Woodliegh

    Hi,

    Woodliegh weldcores come in 250 grains. That just started making them a few years ago. Midway USA sells them. Good Luck.

    Ron

    PS- I have a few in 350 grains for my 375 H&H. Went through all 24 inches of a waterlogged oak stump. Compare that with the standard softpoint federals at 10 inches. Just FYI.

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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    bgreen.

    I don't mean to rattle your cage, you are the go between here, but you are bringing a handful of confusion. George is right and he said it so well.

    The only Barnes bullet that ever weighed 250 grains (in 30 cal) is/was the Original "O" bullet, I still have some on my bench. They are no longer made. The "O" will out penetrate a freight train.

    Repeat after me...Heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter bullets and higher impact velocity increases expansion and limits penetration.
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring confusion. I meant to say Barnes O, not x. I do understand that heavy bullets penetrate more than light, and higher velocity increases expansion and limits penetration. Its my buddy that I am trying to convince, maybe its a lost cause, he is the most stubborn headed person I have ever met.
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  12. #12
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Bullet

    If he is using the right 180 grain bullet he will not have a problem....


    180/200 Nosler Part
    165/180 Barnes TSX
    and Reloader 22
    Alaska

  13. #13

    Default

    Shock and hemoraging is what puts animals down quickly. Your friend needs to make a big hole in the vitals to drop a critter quickly. A caliber sized hole through the vitals won't do that as quickly as something that tears big fast holes. Your friend may be getting fast clean kills and not knowing it. One shot instant drops of animals aren't the norm. If that is what he is expecting he is setting himself up for disappointment.

  14. #14

    Default hawk bullet

    hawk buillets make a 300 grain bonded core bullet , it works really well but it looks like pencil its so long

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    Default

    try the Woodleigh 240 grain Protected Point, the manufacturer states not to have them impact at no more than 2400fps in order for them to hold up. I have 2 boxes of them and load them specifically for my .30-338, similiar to the 300 win mag. At the moment I have them loaded to 2564fps and printing clover leafs @ 100yds.

    I personally like heavier bullets and look for bone breakage when shooting dangerous game like Grizz. When I shoot moose there are so many fine bullets out there that will down anything any which way you like in the .30 caliber - I heard though that the Hawk are called "Hawk grenades" and should not be driven like a ferrari - you get my meaning.

    My personal favorites are both Swifts and Barnes, have some North Forks 225's that I want to see the results this spring on grizz in my Rem. model 30 .338-06, should be the "creme de la creme" of all bullets or so I have heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbear View Post
    hawk buillets make a 300 grain bonded core bullet , it works really well but it looks like pencil its so long
    Wow! That's a lot of bullet. I don't think Hawk makes anything that is bonded, though. Their jackets are soft annealed and will roll back easily without tearing and are almost as moldable as the lead is. They do expand a bunch and stay in one piece, though. They cannot be driven a mach 4, they are a moderate velocity bullet. That makes them work very well as a heavy for caliber and consequently slower velocity bullet.

    The Hawk bullets are the replacement for the now defunt barnes "Original" bullets. They are non tapered jackets but offered in different jacket thicknesses. Use thicker for higher velocity or tougher game.

    Tha Kodiak bullets are bonded with tapered jackets and the Woodleigh bullets are bonded with jackets of uniform thickness but the jackets are not very soft. They all work very well in varying applications.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #17
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 300 Win Mag

    In my 300 Win mag

    180 gr Nosler Part
    76.0 of Reloader 22
    Fed 215M primer
    FC Nickle Brass
    Alaska

  18. #18
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Rate of Twist

    Got to be careful most 300 Win do better with 200 to 165 any hevier and you need a different twist..........

    The 180/200 Nosler Accubond should be excellent for Alaska.
    Alaska

  19. #19
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Default

    Unless he's shooting Remington Bronze points, and he makes shoulder shots. Nothing will run away. There is only one shot I do not care for and that is the head on shot. A going away shot calls for the Texas heart shot. Any shot that breaks the spine or shoulder, pelvis is an anchoring shot as long as the bullet does not lack penetration, like the Bronze point.

    A forgotten fact is the reason the Remington 7 mm mag has such a poor rep in Alaska, is due to the fact that the first ammo that was available from Grace hardware when this rifle came out was the Bronze point loads. People all over the state reported see clumps of hair blown out and no effect on the moose. Such a fine ctg. to this day and you can hardly give away rifle chambered for the 7mm Rem mag. Because of that bullet. It would have been a different story altogather if the first loads had been Corelocks.

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