Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Any Ram Permit Hunts: two 38"ers

  1. #1
    New member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    7

    Default Any Ram Permit Hunts: two 38"ers

    I recently hunted in the Chugach on a party permit with my long time hunting partner. This was an any ram hunt and I believe the any ram option is definitley the way to go for permit hunts having a maximum harvest rate (i.e., a limited number of tags). This removes the subjective aspect of trying to judge rams as full curl in the field (let alone in the laboratory) and makes life a whole lot easier and relaxing for the hunter.

    Our hunt is a prime example. The larger ram was 38 5/8" on one side and broomed on the other yet is not a full curl but was 11 yrs old. In a full curl area we would have never considered this ram as legal and counting rings is a dangerous game we won't play. The other ram was beyond full, 38 1/2", 9 yrs old, and would have been a no-brainer to judge as full curl. The point being, it takes some rams a very long time to attain the full curl status, if ever, and the any ram option opens the door for harvesting these animals. Also, the full curl regulation selects against sheep that genetically develop full curls at younger age and protects sheep that genetically may never attain full curl.

    Anyway, I hope you like the picture and I thought it was worth sharing as it's not often you have two mature rams in the same image and the topic of "any ram permit hunts" is interesting. We were very fortunate to have great weather and by far the easiest sheep hunt we've ever experienced. Sometimes it is suppose to work that way!

    Last edited by Brian M; 09-16-2012 at 14:38. Reason: making photo in-line instead of a hyperlink

  2. #2
    Member mtnclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Anchorage, Ak
    Posts
    354

    Default

    Beautiful picture, beautiful rams. Let the conversation begin about "any ram" tags...

  3. #3
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    13,396

    Default

    I must admit that I have mixed feelings about any ram tags. The point made above is a solid one regarding selecting against younger full curl rams and protecting the genes of those that will never reach full. The opposing point is that such tags increase success rates and in turn can decrease hunter opportunity. F&G gives away x number of tags based upon the harvestable surplus and the average success rate. If they figure the area can handle a harvest of 10 rams and the hunt usually has a 50% success rate, they can in turn award 20 tags. If in an any-ram hunt the success rate jumps to 66%, then they can only give away 15 tags. It's not a huge difference, but to those five more people who could go sheep hunting, it makes a difference. Three years ago I took a friend on a 14C sheep hunt. If it had been an any-ram tag, we could have easily taken a 7/8 ram from camp, as it was feeding 100 yards from our tent when we woke up. As it turned out, we went home without a ram. One less sheep was taken, thus either helping with the health of the breeding population and/or providing future opportunity for another hunter. Yes, yes, of course we would have liked to take a ram, but I covet opportunity more than I do taking a ram on any given hunt. Personal preference, though...and if I were to win an any-ram tag, I wouldn't hesitate to take a less-than-full curl ram.

    Congratulations on a couple of very fine rams, sir!

  4. #4
    Member mtnclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Anchorage, Ak
    Posts
    354

    Default

    What is this any ram subject having to do with? General Harvest? Draw tags? I guess i missed the intent of the post

  5. #5
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    13,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnclimber View Post
    What is this any ram subject having to do with? General Harvest? Draw tags? I guess i missed the intent of the post
    Draw tags. There are a handful of drawing permits that allow the harvest of any ram, whereas most draw (and almost all general harvest) tags require full curl/8 year old/double broomed rams.

  6. #6
    Member mtnclimber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Anchorage, Ak
    Posts
    354

    Default

    Personally, i wouldn't want to make the change to any ram. Many LESS people would get tags. If any ram tags were given the harvest percentage would go up and less tags would be given. IMO if you draw a tag for a sheep, you have a good chance at taking a real trophy if you put the time and effort in. 8 year old plus and full curl sheep should be the only sheep coming out of these areas. Too many irresponsible hunters that would take the younger smaller easier ram.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    739

    Default

    To the OP, congrats on the success. What were your rifles and cartridge setup? I was wondering if the sheep tag topic was going to come up this year. Well, at least its not a war on the non-resident.........yet.

  8. #8
    Member CtP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sitka
    Posts
    261

    Default

    Nice job making good on that tag!! Those are two Chugach beauties right there. They definitely have the face of old rams.
    Congrats to you and your partner.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Palmer
    Posts
    267

    Default

    Great rams. Thanks for sharing the pic. I agree with the OP that drawing hunts should be any ram and not limited to full curl. I think the "protect the genes" argument has merit, I think the hunting experience will be better for permit holders, and I think the improvement in the hunting experience for the permit holders outweighs the small reduction in number of permits.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Eielson Farm Road
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Good job, very impressive rams. To each his own, on the any ram debate. It boils down to what you want, I want old rams.( I count rings)

  11. #11
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default Any Ram Permit Hunts: two 38"ers

    There is some merit to the idea of full curl only regs targeting the best genetics. In this case had they not had an any ram tag they would have passed on the 11 year old with poorer genetics. There are some 6 yo sheep that make full curl and 36+" but are those really the ones we want to see harvested vs the 11-12 yo 36-38" er?

    I am still on the fence regarding the any ram tags but would like to see some data on lamb recruitment in the areas where it had been implemented. We have imperical data showing that 7/8 curl regs do not work in heavily hunted open harvest situations but I suppose it is possible that they would in a limited draw situation.

  12. #12
    Member Bullelkklr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage Alaska
    Posts
    4,839

    Default

    Do you have any more photos of the Rams horns? I am trying to get learnt on how to tell a legal sheep.....

  13. #13
    Member jmg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    At the end of the cul-de-sac
    Posts
    964

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    I must admit that I have mixed feelings about any ram tags. The point made above is a solid one regarding selecting against younger full curl rams and protecting the genes of those that will never reach full. The opposing point is that such tags increase success rates and in turn can decrease hunter opportunity. F&G gives away x number of tags based upon the harvestable surplus and the average success rate. If they figure the area can handle a harvest of 10 rams and the hunt usually has a 50% success rate, they can in turn award 20 tags. If in an any-ram hunt the success rate jumps to 66%, then they can only give away 15 tags. It's not a huge difference, but to those five more people who could go sheep hunting, it makes a difference. Three years ago I took a friend on a 14C sheep hunt. If it had been an any-ram tag, we could have easily taken a 7/8 ram from camp, as it was feeding 100 yards from our tent when we woke up. As it turned out, we went home without a ram. One less sheep was taken, thus either helping with the health of the breeding population and/or providing future opportunity for another hunter. Yes, yes, of course we would have liked to take a ram, but I covet opportunity more than I do taking a ram on any given hunt. Personal preference, though...and if I were to win an any-ram tag, I wouldn't hesitate to take a less-than-full curl ram.

    Congratulations on a couple of very fine rams, sir!
    Congrats to the OP - very nice rams.

    Very valid points Brian, but I also wonder how many hunters would have taken that 7/8 curl ram you saw? I imagine figuring out harvest quotas and tag numbers is tricky to begin with, and in an ideal world the F&G folks would not have to do it based on illegal harvests, but surely they take that into account at least a little bit, no? So if there was a 50% success rate - 10 legal rams taken, but an additional even 2 tags were filled with sublegal animals, F&G is going to have to keep reprojecting on this type of data. If they can throw 15 tags out there knowing whatever is taken would be legal, it might make the management a little easier. Besides going through Trooper reports online, does fish and game ever give data on the number of illegal animals taken in given areas?
    Never count your days, but rather, make all of your days count.

  14. #14
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Eagle River, AK
    Posts
    13,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmg View Post
    Besides going through Trooper reports online, does fish and game ever give data on the number of illegal animals taken in given areas?
    If the sub-legal ram is reported or discovered, then yes, it is included in the harvest report data that can be looked up on F&G's website. If it's left in the field, then no.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    fishhook, ak
    Posts
    1,124

    Default Any Ram Permit Hunts: two 38"ers

    At least with the moose reports they factor in a poached/illegal take but it is an extremely non scientific number or percentage I forget which offhand... and based on my field experience I think it is substantially lowballed.

    Hence the need for regulations to err on the side of the precautionary principle...

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    20

    Default

    Congrats on your hunt.

  17. #17
    Charterboat Operator Abel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kodiak
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    Same way they factor in DLP's on Brownies, those reported or found are counted against harvest. It's the ones that aren't known that mess with the numbers.

  18. #18
    Member oakman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    1,172

    Default

    Personally I like the idea of the "any ram" tags....for some areas. I think this is a great way for people to learn to hunt sheep, have a little fudge factor, etc. One thing that has irritated me on this site lately is this idea that when someone does things differently than you they are wrong. Everyone has different values, priorities, etc. Some people want to get a monster ram and won't settle for anything else. Other guys want to go out for a great hunt and bring something back.

    Some people like to hunt with luxuries (like ARGOs, boats, etc). Other people like to "rough it" and hunt on foot, live under a tarp, etc.

    I have never applied for one of these any ram hunts before, but I think I might talk my (non-res) brother in law into applying for one next year. We'd have a great hunt and he'd have a little better chance of bringing a trophy home.

    BTW, great pictures, great story, and THANK YOU for sharing!

  19. #19
    New member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    7

    Default

    Thanks everyone for the congrats and great discussion.

  20. #20
    Charterboat Operator Abel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kodiak
    Posts
    1,279

    Default

    I like the idea as long as they keep it in check. I think it gives us newbies (haven't hunted sheep yet) a little room for error on judging. I'm good with goats, but counting rings on a ram, don't have enough sheep on this island for me to do any field work I'll put in for draw tags, but most likely my first hunt will be in the Kenai's, i think.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •