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Thread: S&W 460V advice needed

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    Default S&W 460V advice needed

    I've got a 460V that I've owned for several years now. I love the thing, but there's a small gripe I'd like to address. Those of you who are familiar with these guns know they come with two different flash suppressors; one for cast bullets, and the other for jacketed. I typically will shoot both on any given trip to the range, and I dislike the thought that I need to switch based on what bullet type I'm using. (I never do switch anyway - as I prefer the longer one which is much quieter.) The small screw that holds the suppressor in place on my gun no longer keeps it tight, and I am thinking about getting a custom job done to eliminate it.

    My first idea: Have the suppressor housing cut off, barrel re-crowned and magna-ported.

    Second idea: Have a new 6" barrel installed, also with magna - porting.

    Which option would ya'll recommend, and why? Also - is there a gunsmith in AK that would be recommended for this type of job?

    Thanks!

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    If you want it magnaported, only http://www.magnaport.com does it. I had my 4" 454 Redhawk magnaported as well as my Kimber 325. It reduces muzzle flip greatly but is not designed as a recoil reducer. I'm happy with it. Call em up and talk to em.

    I've read of some guys replacing that suppressor with a custom one with no holes/slots in it on their 500 s&w's. Maybe on this forum. Can't remember for sure. But, that might be another option.
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    Default another option...

    I'm not sure why they have two suppressors. I use the one with the holes in the top - which I think is for jacketed bullets for everything. I've been hit a few times by lead? particles but it was barely enough to notice - no pain or red marks on the face. the holes in the top should help with the muzzle fip which is my concern.

    Remember that to tightenen the suppressor you turn the screw COUNTER CLOCKWISE - not clockwise as you would expect! I had the same issue also until I noticed the arrow on the screw head. Since then no problems with looseness.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKsoldier View Post
    I've got a 460V that I've owned for several years now. I love the thing, but there's a small gripe I'd like to address. Those of you who are familiar with these guns know they come with two different flash suppressors; one for cast bullets, and the other for jacketed. I typically will shoot both on any given trip to the range, and I dislike the thought that I need to switch based on what bullet type I'm using. (I never do switch anyway - as I prefer the longer one which is much quieter.) The small screw that holds the suppressor in place on my gun no longer keeps it tight, and I am thinking about getting a custom job done to eliminate it.

    My first idea: Have the suppressor housing cut off, barrel re-crowned and magna-ported.

    Second idea: Have a new 6" barrel installed, also with magna - porting.

    Which option would ya'll recommend, and why? Also - is there a gunsmith in AK that would be recommended for this type of job?

    Thanks!
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Be sure to remove the suppressor on occasion. Lead and jacket material will build up between the suppressor and barrel face, making it hard I manipulate later.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Thanks gents, Snyd - I thought I had read somewhere about Magnaport being exclusive on that. tvfinak, I was turning the screw the right way. I'm guessing there's some carbon buildup or some damaged threads or something, but mine won't tighten anymore. The recoil reduction really isn't that big an issue for me. I can deal with the recoil in the 460 with 535 gr. bullets from Ranger Rick, so I can't imagine the elimination of the suppressor would change it enough to matter to me. Especially if I go with some magnaporting, to accomplish the same thing.

    I remember reading that the 460 has "progressive rate rifling" or something along those lines - this is why I'd be hesitant to replace the barrel. I want to maintain the S&W factory characteristics for the caliber. They designed it the way it is for a reason, and I haven't found any reference to a custom one with an aftermarket barrel. I wouldn't mind getting a little more length though, if that's not an issue. I figure a 6" aftermarket barrel with porting would only be about 1/4" longer than the current one wearing the longer of the two suppressors.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

    Noone has a more intimate understanding of, or deeper appreciation for freedom, than a soldier who has fought for it in a country where it does not exist.

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    Well the barrel is inside a shroud (itís two pieces sleeved together) so I donít know if it can be ported, seems problematic to me with alignment and leading between the layers type issues. Then it is progressive rifled in the 460s with the barrel passing through the shroud threaded to the frame to hold both in place. Removing it takes a tool that fits inside and doesnít heart the rifling to remove it without damage, I have been trying to find this tool for months now as I intend to start doing barrel work on X-frames. If I was to remove the factory comp I donít think Iíd port it anyway, I donít think they need anything because I have shot without mine and the flip really isnít any worse. I think John Ross had the right idea with his 5Ē 500s except that he didnít do any in 460.

    I think your best options are:
    1> Send it in and let Smith repair it as-is, itís a warrantee item they will fix for you. Takes about 2 or 3 weeks including shipping to get a gun through Smith warrantee shop usually. Once the little cam screw is fixed if you want a solid comp for it I can fix you up, Iím gearing up to make a batch of them for 460 right now. The 500 ones out there wonít fit 460 because of the lug placement, they didnít want anyone sticking a small hole 460 comp on a 500 so made them not interchangeable.

    2> Send it to S&W Custom Shop for a one piece non ported barrel, IĎd go 5ď myself. That way you get the threaded on comp and rifling all the way to the end if you take it off and install a thread cover. So you can use the comp or not and maybe even get yourself a can for it someday. Personally I think this is the coolest option and not all that much money I bet and should be offset by the ďPerformance Center" value added to the gun.
     
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    Default One piece barrel?

    Sending the gun back to S&W is always the best option and they pay shipping both ways plus they have fixed all mine for free. Hard to beat free except for your .454 gifts from Ruger.

    I wasn't aware that S&W made a one-piece barrel. I understand that they use EDM to progessive-rifle the barrels so I guess they could do it on about anything. I only wish they would use progressive rifling on the .500; the torque from shooting heavy bullets in my 4" .500 is worse than the recoil to me.

    I'm not certain what all models S&W uses the 2 piece shrouded on; I even saw on on a 4" J frame .357.



    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Well the barrel is inside a shroud (itís two pieces sleeved together) so I donít know if it can be ported, seems problematic to me with alignment and leading between the layers type issues. Then it is progressive rifled in the 460s with the barrel passing through the shroud threaded to the frame to hold both in place. Removing it takes a tool that fits inside and doesnít heart the rifling to remove it without damage, I have been trying to find this tool for months now as I intend to start doing barrel work on X-frames. If I was to remove the factory comp I donít think Iíd port it anyway, I donít think they need anything because I have shot without mine and the flip really isnít any worse. I think John Ross had the right idea with his 5Ē 500s except that he didnít do any in 460.

    I think your best options are:
    1> Send it in and let Smith repair it as-is, itís a warrantee item they will fix for you. Takes about 2 or 3 weeks including shipping to get a gun through Smith warrantee shop usually. Once the little cam screw is fixed if you want a solid comp for it I can fix you up, Iím gearing up to make a batch of them for 460 right now. The 500 ones out there wonít fit 460 because of the lug placement, they didnít want anyone sticking a small hole 460 comp on a 500 so made them not interchangeable.

    2> Send it to S&W Custom Shop for a one piece non ported barrel, IĎd go 5ď myself. That way you get the threaded on comp and rifling all the way to the end if you take it off and install a thread cover. So you can use the comp or not and maybe even get yourself a can for it someday. Personally I think this is the coolest option and not all that much money I bet and should be offset by the ďPerformance Center" value added to the gun.
     
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    IĎm not 100% they are a one piece but I think they are, they port then and I donít think they would port a shrouded barrel. I think the John Ross, which is built by S&W Performance Center, is a one piece.

    Yup they EDM the rifling in, I donít know why they donít progressive rifle a lot of stuff, it works great! Itís my understanding that most of the ones post the changing of ownership are now 2 piece but the scandium ones still have the nut. My wifeís 60LS-14 made about 07 has a solid 2Ē that was EDM profiled inside and out. I can't figgure out how the heck they make the EDM wire cut a spyral in an ID but they do it somehow. I'm just learning about EDM and thinking about getting one but they are real tight liped about how you'd cut rifling with them . . . or maybe the guys in my price range just don't know.

    The dang 2 piece setup makes it expensive to tool up to work on Smiths, you need sixty-eleven bung wrenches, one per caliber just about to do it right. And the wrenches need to be so perfect that you need an EDM to make them too, itíd be real hard to machine them any other way and not ding things up in there. The 460 is real odd because of the progressive twist, there are 4 groves for the bung wrench to grab. They are clocked at about 2:30, 4:30, 7:30, 9:30 and nothing at 12 where youíd expect a 5th one. Iím hunting one hard because I got plans to play with X-frames before very long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TWB View Post
    Be sure to remove the suppressor on occasion. Lead and jacket material will build up between the suppressor and barrel face, making it hard I manipulate later.
    To ďmanipulate laterĒ when itís stuck on loosen the cam screw then take a lead or brass hammer (steel hammer and wood block will work) and rap the muzzle of the comp back agents the barrel lightly a couple times. This will squish the fouling without harming the steel to give the lugs room to turn and she will come right off easy as pie. (the eatin kind not the math kind of pie) Donít even need that thing they give you to stick in the ports ti twist it with this trick! There is only so much that will fit in that crack and since I figured out how to get it free no matter how bad itís stuck I hardly ever remove mine anymore, I donĎt care if itĎs full of gunk I know it will come right off when I want it off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    .............................
    I can't figgure out how the heck they make the EDM wire cut a spyral in an ID but they do it somehow. I'm just learning about EDM and thinking about getting one but they are real tight liped about how you'd cut rifling with them . . . or maybe the guys in my price range just don't know.

    ................................
    Probably using graphite electrodes.....
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    Thanks for the tip Andy! I have never had trouble getting mine off yet, but it's good to know. I'm kind of meticulous about cleaning every part each time I shoot it. I have probably close to 500 rounds through it so far.

    Having previously worked in a machine shop and been around EDM machines, I can envision how the rifling might be cut. It would require purpose - built fixtures, but it's certainly doable.

    The other 299,300,000 people can have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsoldier View Post
    Thanks for the tip Andy! I have never had trouble getting mine off yet, but it's good to know. I'm kind of meticulous about cleaning every part each time I shoot it. I have probably close to 500 rounds through it so far.

    Having previously worked in a machine shop and been around EDM machines, I can envision how the rifling might be cut. It would require purpose - built fixtures, but it's certainly doable.
    Your quite welcome. I just happened onto it as I was taking mine off one day and it wouldnít turn even with enough force I was worried about the tool dinging up the ports. Looked down at my bench full of machinist tools in disgust hoping to get some ideas. There sat my tools for changing R8 holders in the mill . . . ha . . . brass drawbar hammer! You know "get a hammer" and all but it worked so well and easy I couldnít even believe it . . . my hammer escapades don't always go so well.



    I have an idea how you could EDM rifling with a 4th axis and moveable shielding on the wire to keep it from just cutting a straight line. But I bet whatever they are doing is a lot more simple and elegant than anything I can think up with what little I know. Could well be graphite electrodes as travelers says but Iíve only seen the graphite electrodes used for drilling. I suppose one with a tip shelded to cut at 90* in a 4 axis set-up could work but all I have seen are straight rods for drilling holes. I never got any time in around EDM, they were still too pricy for small to mid size shops when I got out of aerospace. Now there are guys building their own for two grand using CNC router parts and good imaginations.
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    I have absolutely no experience with the .460s. I'm waiting till John Ross brings out his that will be like his 500 with no comp. I have first dibs on the same serial number as my 500 has. I wonder if you can buy a comp filler like the ones sold for the 500s, surely someone will be making them, if not already?
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
    I have absolutely no experience with the .460s. I'm waiting till John Ross brings out his that will be like his 500 with no comp. I have first dibs on the same serial number as my 500 has. I wonder if you can buy a comp filler like the ones sold for the 500s, surely someone will be making them, if not already?
    Steve
    Yup, Iím making a batch of 460 comp blocks, in about a month here I should have some.

    Glad to hear John Ross is making some 460s. Does your John Ross 500 have a solid one piece barrel or is it two piece?
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    Default EDM

    If you had the bore hole already drilled all you would need to cut is the grooves for the rifling. Then all you would need to do is rotate the electrode properly as it cut down the bore. I remember we cut all sorts of shapes with sharp corners and everything back in the late 60s -early 70s when I was a Q/C Manager in a plant that made electro-mechanical assemblies. If I recall we used beryllium alloy electrodes but they were expensive and hazardous to breath the dust etc. A lot of stuff I'm sure has changed since then - that was 40 years ago before the wire EDM was popular. Digital anything was just showing up and very expensive but quite popular.

    The S&W X frame bores are also reputed to be very smooth. I wonder if they electric-polish them or ?? - I haven't read anything on the subject.


    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Your quite welcome. I just happened onto it as I was taking mine off one day and it wouldnít turn even with enough force I was worried about the tool dinging up the ports. Looked down at my bench full of machinist tools in disgust hoping to get some ideas. There sat my tools for changing R8 holders in the mill . . . ha . . . brass drawbar hammer! You know "get a hammer" and all but it worked so well and easy I couldnít even believe it . . . my hammer escapades don't always go so well.
    I have an idea how you could EDM rifling with a 4th axis and moveable shielding on the wire to keep it from just cutting a straight line. But I bet whatever they are doing is a lot more simple and elegant than anything I can think up with what little I know. Could well be graphite electrodes as travelers says but Iíve only seen the graphite electrodes used for drilling. I suppose one with a tip shelded to cut at 90* in a 4 axis set-up could work but all I have seen are straight rods for drilling holes. I never got any time in around EDM, they were still too pricy for small to mid size shops when I got out of aerospace. Now there are guys building their own for two grand using CNC router parts and good imaginations.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Wire EDM cuts along the entire length of the wire anyplace its within range of the part, the wire is held tight and straight. So itís kinda like a wire cheese cutter, if all you do is rotate the part as you cut you will just enlarge the hole because your cutting full length of the bore. Iím sure itís one of those things that when you see it ya think how simple but I sure canít picture it yet. Must be some shielding, some way to hold a bump in the wire or some other way to make it cut at a single point.

    Surface finish of EDM parts is extremely smooth, on a roughing pass it leaves a surface similar to 400 grit and with finishing passes Iím told a 50 micron surface is possible right off the machine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yup, Iím making a batch of 460 comp blocks, in about a month here I should have some.

    Glad to hear John Ross is making some 460s. Does your John Ross 500 have a solid one piece barrel or is it two piece?
    John told me that he's thinking of doing some, as soon as he recovers from the 500s? No, John's 500 have no provisions for a comp, just plain old 5" barrels, rifling all the way to the end.
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Wire EDM cuts along the entire length of the wire anyplace its within range of the part, the wire is held tight and straight. So itís kinda like a wire cheese cutter, if all you do is rotate the part as you cut you will just enlarge the hole because your cutting full length of the bore. Iím sure itís one of those things that when you see it ya think how simple but I sure canít picture it yet. Must be some shielding, some way to hold a bump in the wire or some other way to make it cut at a single point.

    Surface finish of EDM parts is extremely smooth, on a roughing pass it leaves a surface similar to 400 grit and with finishing passes Iím told a 50 micron surface is possible right off the machine.
    50 microns isn't much?
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
    John told me that he's thinking of doing some, as soon as he recovers from the 500s? No, John's 500 have no provisions for a comp, just plain old 5" barrels, rifling all the way to the end.
    I know there is no comp but is there a barrel shroud with the actual barrel inside it or is it a single solid piece of steel like I'm thinking?


    Quote Originally Posted by S.B. View Post
    50 microns isn't much?
    Enough to make the cuts in this without any other fitting up:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMfjangd0ds
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    I know there is no comp but is there a barrel shroud with the actual barrel inside it or is it a single solid piece of steel like I'm thinking?



    Enough to make the cuts in this without any other fitting up:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMfjangd0ds
    it's my understanding that John makes no parts, just designs the pistols and S&W manufactures them with inhouse parts and labor? So, shrouded barrel(two parts).
    1 micron = 1/25,000 of an inch, 25 microns to every one thousands of an inch.
    Steve

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