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Thread: I had to chuckle....

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    Default I had to chuckle....

    when I read the KSRA petition that was discussed today by the BOF regarding the late run Kenai kings. It said that the set netters (thats me) needed to be kept out of the water so that the kings could reach their spawning grounds. Spawning grounds? They should have said that the set netters should have been kept out of the water so that the kings could reach our (guides) fishing area (yes, I'm aware that there is no king fishing right now)!

    If I were a cattle rancher, would I harvest my best bull and cow? No, I'd keep them for my breeding stock. The in river user rule that allows keeping a king over 55" inches is just killing off the genetics of that "hog" king. Even that huge mule deer buck hanging on your wall probably got to reproduce multiple times before being shot. The big kings don't ever get that chance.

    There will always be the debate that a big king was one that stayed out a year longer and therefore its bigger. Or it fed better than the rest. I'd offer this to snuff out that argument. I'm 6'1" and my wife 5'9". Genetically, we assume we'd have big kids regardless of whether or not they ate 3 meals a day of junk food or a well balanced diet. Our 3 teenage boys were all in the top 10% of their percentile for age/height/weight every year because of their genetics not for any other reason! Stop killing big kings and the big kings will return! Stop fishing over the top of the spawning beds and the kings will return!

    If you look at in river pressure, you can't ignore the increased usage. Comm fish has been limited entry since 1974, in that their are the same number of participants then as now. Our king catch was nearly the same in recent years vs data from the late 70's. In the last 30 yrs, the guide numbers have increased to between 300-400 (Ricky G recently mentioned in an article that over 300 guides were being affected by the king closure) and these are participants fishing right over the spawning beds! Yes, comm guys catch kings but in the same proportion as we always have. What has changed? In river pressure over the spawning beds and killing of large kings.

    Everyone needs to help here. Us Comm guys are all or none. We fish or we don't. We don't have any step down measures. Guides have lots of opportunities if one fishery is shut down. They can hit the Kasilof or go further down the peninsula, they can fish reds/slivers/pinks, they can fish the salt etc. All I know is, we've been singled out as the only user group to bear the entire burden of king conservation this year (guides got 19 days to fish so don't go there and the Kenai convieninently went C&R the day after the Kenai Classic).

    'Nuff said.

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    Wink Surprise, surprise . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by 5akman View Post
    . . the KSRA petition that was discussed today by the BOF . . said that the set netters (thats me) needed to be kept out of the water so that the kings could reach their spawning grounds. . .
    Attachment 61854

    Surprise! Surprise! The KRSA bunch has been huntin' your scalp for years . . they don't want you guys catchin' any of their precious kings . . hey, we got property values, thrills, a rush, and the economics of ego at stake here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 5akman View Post
    when I read the KSRA petition that was discussed today by the BOF regarding the late run Kenai kings. It said that the set netters (thats me) needed to be kept out of the water so that the kings could reach their spawning grounds. Spawning grounds? They should have said that the set netters should have been kept out of the water so that the kings could reach our (guides) fishing area (yes, I'm aware that there is no king fishing right now)!

    If I were a cattle rancher, would I harvest my best bull and cow? No, I'd keep them for my breeding stock. The in river user rule that allows keeping a king over 55" inches is just killing off the genetics of that "hog" king. Even that huge mule deer buck hanging on your wall probably got to reproduce multiple times before being shot. The big kings don't ever get that chance.

    There will always be the debate that a big king was one that stayed out a year longer and therefore its bigger. Or it fed better than the rest. I'd offer this to snuff out that argument. I'm 6'1" and my wife 5'9". Genetically, we assume we'd have big kids regardless of whether or not they ate 3 meals a day of junk food or a well balanced diet. Our 3 teenage boys were all in the top 10% of their percentile for age/height/weight every year because of their genetics not for any other reason! Stop killing big kings and the big kings will return! Stop fishing over the top of the spawning beds and the kings will return!

    If you look at in river pressure, you can't ignore the increased usage. Comm fish has been limited entry since 1974, in that their are the same number of participants then as now. Our king catch was nearly the same in recent years vs data from the late 70's. In the last 30 yrs, the guide numbers have increased to between 300-400 (Ricky G recently mentioned in an article that over 300 guides were being affected by the king closure) and these are participants fishing right over the spawning beds! Yes, comm guys catch kings but in the same proportion as we always have. What has changed? In river pressure over the spawning beds and killing of large kings.

    Everyone needs to help here. Us Comm guys are all or none. We fish or we don't. We don't have any step down measures. Guides have lots of opportunities if one fishery is shut down. They can hit the Kasilof or go further down the peninsula, they can fish reds/slivers/pinks, they can fish the salt etc. All I know is, we've been singled out as the only user group to bear the entire burden of king conservation this year (guides got 19 days to fish so don't go there and the Kenai convieninently went C&R the day after the Kenai Classic).

    'Nuff said.
    Well said, but unfortunately common sense has a hard time overcoming greed. It's very frustrating, especially when Kenai River guides claim to be in full support of conservation, yet they will kill fish at any and all oppurtunites. The reality is, the only conservation measures they support are the measures that shut down the setnetters for their own benefit.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    I wonder how many guides will be out "silver fishing" today?

    Did anybody else see the picture of that big king (supposedly a 75 pounder) being held out of the water in ADN just a few days ago( photo dated 7/18/12). In the caption below the guys said they were lucky because there aren't many big ones left. Well if there aren't many big ones left then why did they drag that one to shore and hold it out of the water for a trophy photo? In essence killing it. That made me chuckle. I also want to know why the troopers don't charge these guys with removing a fish from water and dragging it to shore, when regulations state it is supposed to be released immediately and may not be removed from the water.

    41 vs. 2.5 (1 in some cases) is what my math comes up with. And the group that fishes 2.5 or 1 day(s) get's the biggest amount of blame and the harshest restrictions. Makes sense if you don't think about it, or if you only believe in what KRSA says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 33outdoorsman View Post
    I wonder how many guides will be out "silver fishing" today?
    I wonder how many set netters will be out "pink and red fishing" when adf&g allows them to net in August?

    The door swings both ways when it comes to fishing, my friend.....

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    What kind of stepdown measures in the set net fishery might you like to see?

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    I couldn't get the Board's audio stream to work this morning, but I understand they denied all petitions. Also heard that ADFG pulled what could have been the next setnet period. If true, the right decisions by both the Board and Department, IMO.

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    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/ho.../197188504.pdf
    Found it.

    Did ADFG also keep the salt closed to sportfishing for kings? They should have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by penguin View Post
    I wonder how many set netters will be out "pink and red fishing" when adf&g allows them to net in August?

    The door swings both ways when it comes to fishing, my friend.....
    Use the word if... next time. There hasn't been a when to adf&g fishing setnetters all summer. First time in 60 years a person could say that. First time the commissioners office has determined cook inlet fishery management over local biologists as well.
    And yes reds and pinks is what setnetters would target. Same with drifters. I have no doubt if bait is allowed for silver fishing some would target kings over silvers in the river. I've heard the talk before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 33outdoorsman View Post
    Use the word if... next time. There hasn't been a when to adf&g fishing setnetters all summer. First time in 60 years a person could say that. First time the commissioners office has determined cook inlet fishery management over local biologists as well.
    And yes reds and pinks is what setnetters would target. Same with drifters. I have no doubt if bait is allowed for silver fishing some would target kings over silvers in the river. I've heard the talk before.
    I would bet money that some guides will go after some C&R for kings, especially if the silver fishing is slow. Some guys will stoop down to that level for a little extra tip money
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

  11. #11

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    [QUOTE=33outdoorsman;1153449There hasn't been a when to adf&g fishing setnetters all summer.[/QUOTE]
    There was a when. Set netters got an opener in July.

    Not trying to argue with you. All user groups could only do what was allowed by ADF&G. Did it suck to be a set netter? Yup. Did it suck to be a king guide? Yup. Would have been a great year to be part of the drift fleet.

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    Default what would work?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5akman View Post
    We fish or we don't. We don't have any step down measures.
    Not a setnetter so sorry if this is a dumb question, but I was trying to think of step down measures and all I got was more questions:

    - Would a particular net-opening measurement eliminate most kings? Since there's a huge size difference it seems possible that there might be a size that would gill the reds and let the Kings bump their noses on it, turn around, and swim around the net. I'm thinking maybe a 5 or 6 inch opening. What size do you (and others) use?

    - Are their any options regarding how often the net is emptied that might save Kings?

    - Have any setnetters proposed any step down measures?

    ... just trying to be constructive...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Not a setnetter so sorry if this is a dumb question, but I was trying to think of step down measures and all I got was more questions:

    - Would a particular net-opening measurement eliminate most kings? Since there's a huge size difference it seems possible that there might be a size that would gill the reds and let the Kings bump their noses on it, turn around, and swim around the net. I'm thinking maybe a 5 or 6 inch opening. What size do you (and others) use?

    - Are their any options regarding how often the net is emptied that might save Kings?

    - Have any setnetters proposed any step down measures?

    ... just trying to be constructive...
    Gill nets used are already too small for a king to become gilled, but they still get wrapped/tangled up. 5 1/16" is a common size where I have setnetted I cannot speak for the east side guys, but in my families operation, if a king is very much alive, we will turn it loose, but many times the kings are too far gone to survive release. I really cannot think of a logical way to have a setnet in the water and not catch kings in it. Many kings that hit a net will not be caught in it, but some will. The best way I can think of as a step down measure that setnetters could take is fish less gear than normally allowed. 3 nets per permit are allowed, surely if they cut the number of nets by 1/3 or even 2/3 then less kings would be caught and the guys could still catch some reds. I really feel they should have done this while they were still allowing catch and release in the river, it would have kept things more even keel as far as whats fair is fair goes.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Thanks for the schooling hoose.

    It sure does seem unfair (how they've managed it this year). :-(

    Maybe next year they need a plan in place that has contingencies for probable outcomes that would regulate anyone that might impact the Kings. For example, one place to start is to not open up in river King fishing until they know the run is strong enough to withstand some pressure from all users. Just thinking out loud...

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    Settnettets should not support step down measures because how can you afford them. So 1 permit gets 3 nets if I have to fish 1/3 how can I afford it if I have one permit? How big are the nets? Is it possible to fish less or have less net and still profit? See the guides can do that, they can fish with bait or without and keep or not keep and the profit can be the same. That's why settneytets should not have step down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerline View Post
    Settnettets should not support step down measures because how can you afford them. So 1 permit gets 3 nets if I have to fish 1/3 how can I afford it if I have one permit? How big are the nets? Is it possible to fish less or have less net and still profit? See the guides can do that, they can fish with bait or without and keep or not keep and the profit can be the same. That's why settneytets should not have step down.
    I am not saying that setnetters should be cut down to 1 net permanately, only in times of low numbers. While it's not ideal, I can't imagine a guy would rather not fish than fish one or two nets. You can catch a heck of a lot more reds in one net than zero nets. The bottom line is, until the king numbers are back up, everyone is going to have to give a little.
    Responsible Conservation > Political Allocation

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    For example, one place to start is to not open up in river King fishing until they know the run is strong enough to withstand some pressure from all users. Just thinking out loud...
    Well said. Why is this concept so hard to understand? I understand guides have to book clients and give them some certainty that they will be able to fish, but is that how we are managing the fishery? No user group should have been allowed to keep a Kenai king this year IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    . . It sure does seem unfair (how they've managed it this year). :-(

    Maybe next year . .
    Haven't folks like Bob Penny, the fishNaddiction crowd, and Kenai River Sportfishing Association long hated the ESSNs and advocated for their destruction? Can one possibly doubt that such special interests are now and have been applying all the political pressure they can muster to keep the set-nets high and dry? How many seasons would it take for the set-nets to just go out of business? Would that make the in-river, private and commercial king fishery happy?

    Maybe next year . . ?

    It's my hope that next year the kings don't return at all. The Kenai king fishery is a disgusting joke.

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    If the river is open then the set netters should be open! If the set netters are closed then the river should be closed! Just say no to C&R fishing! How many times as kids did you hear don't play with your food!

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    Here are some king salmon harvest numbers for this season:

    Sport harvest = 103 kings
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/sf/FishCo...n.kenaiChinook
    Sport catch and release mortality - don't see those numbers but 100 fish is my guess.
    Total sport king mortality = 200

    Total eastside set net king harvest = 355 (not including drift harvest)
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...salmon_harvest

    Sport harvest averages around 13,000 kings
    Eastside set net harvest averages around 11,000 kings
    Both users harvested around 7,000 kings last year for a total harvest in 2011 of 14,000 late-run Kenai kings.

    I think f&g was pretty effective in reducing the harvest by all users this season.

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