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Thread: 275 grain Woodleigh Protected Point/358 Winchester range results

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    Default 275 grain Woodleigh Protected Point/358 Winchester range results

    I tested the 286 grainers swaged down, and velocity was fair at 2,175 at 41.5 grains of reloader 10x with a CCI Bench Rest Primer. The cartridge was far from being compressed and I'd estimate the case consumption to be at 95 percent.
    Due to this, I decided to go to a longer spritzer with a much higher BC.

    After reading of an Australian gent shooting wild boar with some 275 grain protected points at low impact velocity, I was sold. He purposely loaded them to test for expansion on boar with impacts around 1,800-2000 fps. The boars had severe wounds and expansion was evident in every occasion. He failed to retrieve a bullet, so he purposely shot a downed boar from one end to the other while being careful not to hit bone. The recovered bullet had expanded wonderfully, and weighed 265 grains or so. His field test can be found here:

    http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...6&fpart=1&vc=1

    Using once-fired 358 Win brass, CCI Bench Rest primers and reloader 10x, I started at 42 grains, 43gr, 43.5gr, 44gr, 44.5gr, 45gr.

    At 42 grains of reloader 10 x I saw 2,200 fps. This was promising and I was enthused, figuring I might reach my 2,300 fps goal. Case looked good, extraction was easy, primer was slightly flattened. Shucked the second one in, chrony read "duplicate", real promising. This is where I hit the problem, I shucked the cartridge with 43 grains into the chamber: 2,240 fps. Extraction was difficult. I was confused. I looked over the case, and the brass had a nice shiny mark on the head where the extractor groove is cut out of the bolt face. The primer was cratered, and the brass had grown in length by .008". It was at this point, that I realized I made a HUGE mistake. I forgot to wipe out the heavy coat of tetra gun oil out of the chamber. This caused the brass to not expand properly, and put more bearing against the bolt face, then the brass flowing back into the chamber. This oiled chamber in combo with a rifle the locks up at the rear, was is a major no-go.

    I'm satisfied that at 42 grains (97 percent case capacity) with a heavily oiled chamber, I got 2,200 fps from an old 20 in. barreled Savage 99 with no excessive pressure signs, but not satisfied enough. At this velocity, this bullet would be almost equal velocity at 300 yds to a 250 grain Swift A-frame at 2,300 fps. Again, the high BC makes this possible. They would both be within an inch of drop at 200 and 300 yds. I will try one more time with a dry chamber, and resized Lapua 308 brass to get beyond 2200 fps.

    Anyhow, If yah didn't click on the link, here's picture from that forum of the recovered 275 grainer (on the right side) with excellent expansion at such a low impact velocity (didn't hit any bone):

    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I think you had an incorrect velocity reading on that last. But note you are way past the danger zone loading the 286 grain bullets. You are using max powder weights for 250 grain bullets.

    The maximum load listed for the .358 Winchester using a 275 grain bullet from the Hodgdon No. 26 manual shows 37 grains of H-4198 for a velocity of 2079fps. From a 26" barrel.
    Last edited by Murphy; 07-12-2012 at 16:26. Reason: Incorrect spelling
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    That's a completely different powder, and not really applicable to my load. H-4198 is much faster burning on all the various burn rate charts, It's no wonder they list the max charge as 37 grains. That stuff is actually faster burning than reloader 7, and not a powder I would use. No mis-read on that last shot fired, my chrony to date, has never failed to give a reading.
    With that said, I don't Woosy-foot on my hand-loads, I strive for maximum potential achieved. There's low pressure target loads, and full power hunting ammo, there's enough low pressure target recipes in the reloading manuals in regards to the .358.

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    Mainer,

    I used to be a professional instructor, so let me work on this. I have been thinking about this all afternoon, I have an explanation for you that is well-reasoned, intelligent, and will be well laid out. I have most of it in my head. Let me work on it a little more. I believe I can explain the why I feel you are on dangerous ground.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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    Just for future reference, I don't feel anyone should ever consider using H-4198 for heavy bullet loads. If I could recommend versatile powders that I would consider for the .358 Win in bullet weights ranging from 200 grains-275 grains, I would recommend these:
    N201 (Norma)
    H322 (Hodgdon)
    X-Terminator (Ramshot)
    2230 (Accurate)
    748 (Winchester)
    Reloader 10X (Alliant)
    BLC-2 (Hodgdon)
    2460 (Accurate)
    H335 (Hodgdon)
    TAC (Ramshot)

    Probably the next heavy bullet powder I will test, is Vihtavuori N-133 which has a burn rate very similar to Norma-201, if not slightly slower:
    http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs...Rate-Chart.pdf

    Nitro, I just read your post. I look forward to what you write, and always appreciate what you contribute to this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    I think you had an incorrect velocity reading on that last. But note you are way past the danger zone loading the 286 grain bullets. You are using max powder weights for 250 grain bullets.
    + ONE, and looking forward to your comments. I choose to reserve my opinions, but looking forward to your assessment.
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    Hey mainer know you love that 358 but don't make it something it isn't! Stick with 225 before you know it you will destroy that 99. If you want to shoot 280gr bullet plus at 2200 f.p.s get a 350 mag. But hey what do I know have fun shooting...

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    Yes, the more I compare the differences of 2,200 fps as opposed to 2300 fps in a ballistics calculator, the more I question if it's worth the extra pressure. With a clean/dry chamber that isn't chock full of heavy tetra gun oil, I will give it one more chance simply out of curiosity when the effect of this negative variable is taken out of the equation. When a brass case isn't given the opportunity to expand in the chamber, it isn't a fair assumption that things are at any overly dangerous level.

    One more trip to the range, and I have no problems settling on 2,200 fps as opposed to getting up around 2300 fps. I always felt the .358 should be able to push bullets within 150-200 fps of a 35 whelen, and at 2,200 fps with safe extraction, that's obviously achieved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    I choose to reserve my opinions, but looking forward to your assessment.

    Awwwww.........don't be passively, aggressively shy. If you took the time to make a pointless post in this thread...........rattle of those numbers expert.

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    We all have our quirks, and convincing you of anything is beyond my skills. Still looking forward to Nitromans impute.
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    Well, if you'd view nitro's response as an imputation, that's you're business, not his. I don't feel he found the need to futrher respond to address something dishonest, but rather, out of genuine concern and caution; he's a relatively thoughtful person.

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    Your load work with the 358Win is over the line, plain and simple. If you want a 350Rem mag buy one. You truly are a loose cannon when it comes to load work with the 358Win, but that is your business and I will leave you to your own devices. It is your gun not mine that is being put under stress. I will leave your post alone and won't respond to them anymore so we can let this rest. I think this would be best for both of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I tested the 286 grainers swaged down, and velocity was fair at 2,175 at 41.5 grains of reloader 10x with a CCI Bench Rest Primer. The cartridge was far from being compressed and I'd estimate the case consumption to be at 95 percent.
    Due to this, I decided to go to a longer spritzer with a much higher BC.
    What on earth does this mean??

    Can you explain your thinking in technical terms of chemical terms or anything to do with the irrevocable laws of physics?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    I will leave your post alone and won't respond to them anymore so we can let this rest. I think this would be best for both of us.
    Ok by, me, only your intentioned inaction within this thread is a contradiction, and four sentences too late.

    Rivers n Creeks will be run the same, and this season's animals will taste the same. Geeze, don't chrony the .358 Double tap 310 grain woodleigh/358 Win factory cartridge, or weigh the powder charge in that stout load.......you might impute their factory load as unsafe and label them as loose cannons too.
    http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=365

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    What on earth does this mean??

    Can you explain your thinking in technical terms of chemical terms or anything to do with the irrevocable laws of physics?

    Well, physics l, and chem l this semester, followed by physics ll next semester. What technical terms are you looking for? What needs clarification in my estimate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    .............This is where I hit the problem, I shucked the cartridge with 43 grains into the chamber: 2,240 fps. Extraction was difficult. I was confused. I looked over the case, and the brass had a nice shiny mark on the head where the extractor groove is cut out of the bolt face. The primer was cratered, and the brass had grown in length by .008". It was at this point, that I realized I made a HUGE mistake. I forgot to wipe out the heavy coat of tetra gun oil out of the chamber. This caused the brass to not expand properly, and put more bearing against the bolt face, then the brass flowing back into the chamber. This oiled chamber in combo with a rifle the locks up at the rear, was is a major no-go.
    Also. What does this mean..a heavily oiled chamber? Lock-up at the rear?

    Your brass is showing very high pressure signs, oiled or not!
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Well, physics l, and chem l this semester, followed by physics ll next semester. What technical terms are you looking for? What needs clarification in my estimate?
    This....Due to this, I decided to go to a longer spritzer with a much higher BC.
    And this... I'd estimate the case consumption to be at 95 percent.
    What is the reasoning behind this?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Also. What does this mean..a heavily oiled chamber? Lock-up at the rear?

    Your brass is showing very high pressure signs, oiled or not!
    When my rifles are stored, the chambers and bores are usually coated heavily with a coat of tetra gun oil (quite self-explanatory). The bolt of a Savage 99 locks up at the rear. The brass wasn't given an opportunity to expand properly against the chamber surface, putting more bearing on the bolt face of this rear-locking bolt of this Savage 99. This allowed the case to expand in an abnormal fashion. With brass having a tendency to grow due to the design of a 99 as opposed to a Bolt action with locking lugs up front, the brass to grew to a much longer length than what I normally experienced with other full power loads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    This....Due to this, I decided to go to a longer spritzer with a much higher BC.
    And this... I'd estimate the case consumption to be at 95 percent.
    What is the reasoning behind this?
    I had easy extraction and promising observations of the fired brass using these swaged down 286 grainers that I tested. The 95 percent figure was in reference to that particular round nosed bullet being short enough, that it didn't use up the case capacity at 41.5 grains of powder. They gave promising velocity right at 2,175 fps. These were swaged down from .366" to .358". They had a ballistic coefficient of .321 At 41.5 grains of reloader 10x, there was plenty of space left in the case when loaded to a cartridge over-all length of 2.800" I then decided to drop 10 grains of bullet weight, and go to a longer Woodleigh spitzer. This bullet had a much higher ballistic coefficient of .450. that would have better retained downrange energy and velocity figures than the swaged down round nosed bullets. At the same COAL these bullets were seated deeper in the case. There was still room in the case beyond 42 grains. The powder wasn't completely used until I reached about 44.5 grains of the powder mentioned, which is why I gave an estimate of 97 percent of case capacity.

    But, this was all relatively explained, and I'm not sure what your confusion is? The oiled chamber was a major variable whether you think so or not, and anyone with any experience, knows this can create higher chamber pressures.

    Anyway, a simple calculation here(tell me if I'm wrong):

    44.5 grains= 100 percent case capacity (no compression of the powder charge).
    Divide the known charge by 100 percent.
    This gives you .445 of a grain representing 1 percent
    Multiply that figure by 97 percent
    This gave 43.165 grains representing 97 percent of used case capacity which was actually more powder than my estimate.

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    Thatís interesting.

    It sounds like you determined how much powder to use, by how much ďestimatedĒ, space is left in the case. That didnít work too well.

    Then, you use a bullet of lighter weight, that has a better BC, but itís longer, so it takes up powder space.

    The oiled chamber is another issue, but itís complicates your dubious calculations.

    Of course, OIL in the chamber can cause serious pressure, especially if itís in the neck. (I never did understand why some folks oil cases to fire form them. I wouldnít risk it, myself.)

    I NEVER oil my chambers. I put oil on a patch and run it through the barrel, then run some dry patches through to remove most of the oil. I wipe he chamber, goin round and round with the dry patches, and sometimes Iíve used a large bore mop with a patch over it. My rifles are stored, ready to load and shoot.

    I hainít got time to CLEANíem before I shootíem. Thatís a bad idea. See, You Forgot.

    I take it, that youíre suggesting that there is some stretch in a rear locking bolt. I dunno. Maybe, depending, etc. etc.

    Did you have accuracy problems from the Swaged Down Jacketed Bullets, from space between the core and jackets?

    Thinking is a good and exciting thing, but calculating, and predicting , and acting, and TRUSTING in it is fraught with danger.

    Because of all the variables, handloading is, IMO, largely an Experimental Science. After awhile, one can get the idea that they KNOW, whatís goin on. Thatís normal, I guess, but it is also DUMB.

    But, I reckon youíve got things under control. You can back off on your powder charge, or change the primer or something. ??

    Those seem like ďtoo heavyĒ bullets for a 358 Winchester, and Iím surprised that you can get expansion at those velocities, but I donít have a 358 Winchester, so Iím only speculating.

    Most folks would probably use a 225 grain bullet. Presumably, or more velocity, and expansion.

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