Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: Rifle that drives me nuts...!!!

  1. #1
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default Rifle that drives me nuts...!!!

    Attached are some photos of groups shot out of my over priced Remington 700 Titanium actioned mountain rifle. Before and after free floating the barrel.
    The top attachment is 35 to 40 year old WW round nose 180 grain soft points. Before being free floated.

    The second string is new 180 grain Hornady light magnums. Fired from a sandbag rest, with cooling between shots. Before being free floated.
    I have to go to another frame for more pics....
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 08-04-2007 at 15:40.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  2. #2
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    Here is what happened after I free floated the barrel.

    As you can see, the first two rounds always touch. The third round then flies off someplace else. Oddly enough, the old ammo that was not so bad before free floating, really did not improve much more. I was just about out of them anyway. They were all green and had been in a leather ammo belt for years and years.

    BTW I have a 3x9 leupold Euro model on this rifle. And the scope and rings are locked down just fine.
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 08-04-2007 at 15:40.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    402

    Default pressure point

    Try shimming the barrel with a buisness card under the forearm so that there is a pound or two pressure between the barrel and stock about 2 inches in from the stock end.

    If it shoots better then that means its an action bedding problem.

    jedi

  4. #4
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    So free floating helped to a degree. And as long as I fire only two rounds with some cooling time in between, everything works out. This third flyer round every time is interesting.

    I tried some 150 grain bullets just to see what would happen. The 150 grain power points and soem old 150 grain Bronze points are shown in these pics. Once again, nothing very good about this load.

    I also tried some moly coated Fail Safe ammo. Those groups were HUGE. Like 8 inches.
    Lake city Arsenal Match ammo did not do well either, The 173 grain stuff.

    While this 30-06 is a dream to carry, the lack of consistant accuracy drives me nuts. Particularly in an $1,100 rifle.
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 08-04-2007 at 15:40.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  5. #5
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    Yeap it had a pressure point when it came from the factory. And it was terrible. As you can see it is a little better after free floating. I tried the paper card pressure point trick and moved it around, plus back and forth. The groups were all over the place and moved a long way from each other just from moving the card around between groups. It was an interesting experiment.
    Somebody here glass bedded his entire barrel channel and he said it worked. That might be next.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    402

    Default sweet spot

    I also read in Precision Shooting awhile back about barrel harmonics and how each barrel can have a sweet spot you can find.

    Hopefully you find it before you run outta barrel.

    The method is to trim the barrel and recrown at 1/8", 1/4" or 1/2" intervals.

    Shoot groups each time. You will see a trend of bigger to smaller then smaller to bigger if you pass the sweet spot.

    So don't get greedy.

    Sounds like a lot of work. Have fun. lol

    jedi

  7. #7
    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska, United States
    Posts
    3,185

    Default BOSS system?

    Isn't the BOSS system supposed to help tune the barrel harmonics? I have seen advertisements which of course claim great things, but haven't talked to anyone who has actually used one.
    AKmud
    http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j96/AKmud/213700RMK1-1.jpg


    The porcupine is a peacful animal yet God still thought it necessary to give him quills....

  8. #8
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    I had a Boss on a M-70 stainless classic 30-06. I could not sell that thing fast enough.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    132

    Default Boss

    The BOSS does work great, if you spend the time getting it tuned. I think it's a great devise for someone who doesn't reload. If you reload, you don't need it, you can tune your ammo instead.

    As for th accuracy of the Remington, remember to let the barrel cool between shots. The titaniums have a real light contour barrel that heats up quickly. The first and second shots are alway's the most critical, especially so in a lightweight like this.

  10. #10
    New member George's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    286

    Default frustrating rifles

    Well, such is the nature of the trend towards lightweight guns and thin barrels. If the action is bedded correctly and everything else is good- sure points to the thin barrel combined with heating and generally falling into the "harmonics" category. I think... if I were given the gun to work on and made to shoot well I would... make sure of bedding, reload for maybe .020" off the lands, try some match type 150-155 gr bullets with some powders at the faster end of the burn rate that data is listed for. You can manipulate to some extent the so called "sweet spot" as it relates to harmonics by tweaking the load recipe starting first with the bullet and powder combination. I guess the theory is that the lighter bullets combined with the faster powder will get out the barrel faster and may produce a more favorable and consistent angle of departure during the harmonic vibration. Each barrel/load combo sets up an S wave in the barrel. Some theorize that if the bullet departs the muzzle near a tangent in the S curve parallel to the line of the bore or at one of the nodes of the cycle the greatest accuracy is achieved. Again, the thin barrel is heating very rapidly changing the harmonics as heating progresses. The effect and amount of change during heating is likewise greater in thin barrels than thick barrels. You can also try the full barrel bedding but the results with the thin barrel may be very iffy. You can try trimming a little to shorten and slightly stiffen the barrel. But, may be best to try the least aggressive things like load tweaking first. Good luck

  11. #11
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    I was shooting one round, pulling the bolt out, then running a dry patch through the bore. Then I would walk downrange with everybody else or just hang out until the barrel was cool. Then fire another round and start all over. The third round flyer is no doubt part of the heat build up. Two rounds with time between them still make that whippy little barrel get hot petty fast. It has the stiffness of a good fly rod.
    As you can see for the first photos of the string type pattern (does not count as a group) the rifle as it came form the factory was really worthless. The pressure points under the barrel just made things worse.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  12. #12
    Member wildwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kenai/Soldotna
    Posts
    450

    Default Great Action

    Worse case situation, you have a great action for a new project. My titanium 7mm-08 is now my favorite hunting stick. All that is left is the action though. I sold the stock and barrel (didn't get much of anything for the barrel). I had the bolt face opened and added A sako extractor, everything squared and trued, mcmillan stock, H-S bottom metal/magazine and kreiger barrel (3 countour fluted) in 300WSM. Pure tack driving fool now.

  13. #13
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    Yeah its' pretty bad when my $125 Ishapore Enfield in 7.62mm will shoot a better group with iron sights, than my $1,100 Remington rifle with $400 worth of scope and rings mounted on it.

    My $500 Ruger 77MKII in 350 Rem Mag outshoots the Remingon as well.

    I am thinking maybe it is demonic possession.

    The next step is to try something like the card trick, but under the entire barrel.

    Heck-fire I am even using a torque wrench to set the action screw tension.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    Yeah its' pretty bad when my $125 Ishapore Enfield in 7.62mm will shoot a better group with iron sights, than my $1,100 Remington rifle with $400 worth of scope and rings mounted on it.

    My $500 Ruger 77MKII in 350 Rem Mag outshoots the Remingon as well.

    I am thinking maybe it is demonic possession.

    The next step is to try something like the card trick, but under the entire barrel.

    Heck-fire I am even using a torque wrench to set the action screw tension.
    Float Pilot, Adjust your loads, different powder, and different bullets, also OAL lenght, make sure brass is trimmed to same length and try different brass. Have a 300WSM A-bolt and was not satisfied with the groups. It ended up liking a different brass, primer and an adjusted OAL Went from 1.265" to .467 and continued to shoot from .734 -.411. just a thought, it might just take a little work. Also unless you have worked out a lot of reloading combinations it will be hard to confidently assume it is not the loads.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  15. #15
    New member George's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    286

    Default segway of frustration

    Float Pilot,
    While I think there is something to the barrel harmonics and heating thing, it is certainly nearly impossible for me to quantify, much less understand.

    About 2 1/2 yrs ago I had a rifle built with good barrel, good stock, trued action. Shot and cleaned to carefully break it in as usual for about 30 rounds. Could feel and "see" bore smooth out. Put together 7 rounds- best guess for a good starting load. Shoot 2 foulers then 5 for record, allowing time to cool between each shot. Kind of a so so group- sometimes you can just tell- "this isn't very good". Try another 7, different recipe, same result- "this thing is not shooting like it should". This went on for another 10-15 recipes and range sessions. The frustration was building. Cut 2" off the barrel and re-bedded the action. Went through the same drill for another 75-100 or so rounds. No change. Knowing that a gun built this way is usually boring and easy to get to shoot well, I put the gun up and took a breather. After about 200 total rounds and 30 something recipes- was time to forget it for a while.

    A couple of months later I pulled out the load records for the rifle, picked the the most promising, loaded 7 and went to the range. Fire 2 foulers, fire 5 records, letting the barrel cool between each shot. Checked the target and... a nearly perfect circular cluster under .5"! Probably just lining up of stars. A couple days later with same recipe... fire 2 foulers, 5 records- same result. Same result a third time! This is not target ammo, it is hunting ammo and loaded with identical specs as a previous load before putting the gun away.

    Attached is a pic of a 5 round group showing how the gun shoots now. A frustrating mystery to me- not because the gun woke up one morning and decided to shoot but because the reason why completely escapes me!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16

    Default Ammo

    How many rounds have been through the tube since it was new, I'm guessing not many.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  17. #17

    Default

    FP,
    I can't speak much on the rifle other than several people I've talked to have problems with those light rifles. Partially 'cuz they heat up so fast. However, the 'line' of bullet holes (in group 2) are indicative of breathing...not the weapon.
    Hope this helps.
    Good Luck
    RIDE TALL, SHOOT STRAIGHT AND ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH

  18. #18
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    It now has about 150 rounds through it. Plus I lapped the bore.

    As you can see two will now touch and the third is a flyer. With all bullet weights. The direction of which way it goes depends on the bullet weight.

    IF, I shoot one round, then go home and clean it, then shoot again one round from a clean cold bore with solvent residue, it will group with all of them touching. 3 rounds over three days. (or almost touching, it is still not a tack driver)

    So it appears that the barrel fouling and heat are the prime reasons this thing does the VODOO to me. Although I am waiting a long time between shots.

    For practical purposes it is OK for hunting, but it BUGS me....

    The fact that it slings the 165s one direction on the 3rd round and the 180s straight down on the 3rd round probably means it is related to the particualr Node frequency of this barrel.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  19. #19

    Default

    Float Pilot,

    I was thinking about using the torque wrench on the action screws, but you've already tried that. Is it possible that as the barrel heats it reverts to its pre-stress relief dimensions? I believe I read something about this on another post. I think the cure was cryo treatment. I guess this is a question for Professor Murphy.

  20. #20
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kachemak Bay Alaska
    Posts
    4,216

    Default

    However, the 'line' of bullet holes (in group 2) are indicative of breathing...not the weapon.
    You would think so, but it was totally sandbagged, we had to mve the target board into the crosshairs. Then I had a couple other guys try it (just in case I was turning the bend) the next day and it did the same thing as it heated up.

    It changed dramatically when I removed the two pressure points under the barrel channel. The first thing was that the entire group dropped 18 inches! Then it started to shoot the first couple touching and the third as a flyer within an inch.

    It will still sling them out in a line if you fire 5 or 6 shots within a couple minutes. Just not as bad as before.

    I am going to try a couple things this week to see what happens.
    The light flexible barrels don't turn my gears.

    When I bought this rifle I had the choice between this and a Kimber. I went with the Remington since the trigger was more to my liking and the stock was not as slippery. I may be expecting too much from a soda straw barrel.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •