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Thread: Polishing flaring die

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    Default Polishing flaring die

    Looks like my Dillon powder-funnel/flaring die was originally made the 50AE caliber because that's what is stamped on the metal. I called up Dillon and they said it's the same for the 500SW.

    When I tried to slide the re-sized cases (which are up tp specs), it cannot slide in easily without a moderate push. This made the case bigger than what is should be in the top 1/2 half inch or so. Ideally, I am expecting the die to slide in until it reach the mouth where resistance will start and create the small flaring at the mouth.

    John Ross and other folks mentioned about polish down the flaring die. What do you suggest using to polish down a piece of steel? Sand-paper for metals?

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    50Ae and 500smith use the same Dillon belling die/ powder funnel, yes.

    When you lower the handle/ raise the ram

    1. the sized brass meets the powder funnel.

    2. the sized brass raises the powder funnel far enough to drop a powder charge

    3. the ram raises just a tiny bit further after the funnel stops and puts a tee-tiny bit of bell in the very mouth of the sized case, less than the top 1/8".

    If you jammed the powder funnel 1/2" down into a sized case, you need to find a different reloading tutor, cause whoever you are using now needs fired.

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    Oh, I was not clear. I was sliding the Powder Funnel into the case by hand outside the machine so I can see where the problem was; i.e. the Powder Funnel is not attached to the machine.

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    Chuck it in a drill press, spin it up to speed and use some 320 gr wet/dry paper coated with a light viscosity oil. Measure as you go, as you can take 0.001" off faster than you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthury View Post
    Oh, I was not clear. I was sliding the Powder Funnel into the case by hand outside the machine so I can see where the problem was; i.e. the Powder Funnel is not attached to the machine.

    The Dillon powder funnel does not go "into" the case. Just a kiss on the top to make a wee tiny bit of bell in the very tippy top of the brass. Loading jacketed bullets in .500 Smith your total bell should use less than 1/8" from the mouth of the case and the rim of the bell should be less than 1/8" wider than case straightwall.

    Once you get the hang of it (with jacketed .500) you can probably use just enough belling to feel with your fingertips it but not clearly see it with your eyes.

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    Huh ... thanks for giving me a hand here.

    When I looked at the powder funnel (PF) , it starts off small and then goes into a much larger diameter towards the top. My original understanding was that the bottom smaller part would enter into the case and when PF goes deeper, the case will reach the wider diameter part and that's where the bell/flaring occurs.

    I guess I am wrong. Let me take a photo and put some arrows and we can resume our conversation from there.

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    Referring to the picture above, my original thots were that the flaring/bell is created by the tapered edge at position C.
    Pushing the powder funnel by hand into the resized case, I am encountering resistance even at position A.

    Are you saying that the flaring should be produced by position A and not C? In that case, why does it have a tapered edge?

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    I have always set mine up so that the B portion expands the sized brass to the proper size just as an expander ball does in a bottleneck case and then the taper at C does the belling of the mouth. Using jacketed bullets this is probably not necessary, but with cast, especially using .001 or .002 oversize boolits, you just about have to push it in to the taper part. If you wanted a tighter fitting bullet you could polish some off the B to C part.

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    Using the Dillon 50AE/.500Smith powder funnel to reload .500 Smith I have always been able to get enough bell to get my bullets seated easily by only using the area of the powder funnel labeled "A"and "B" above.

    On mine, the diameter at point B is .499 At point C where the relatively straight wall ends and the firm funnel out starts, mine is already .509 down on the straight walled part.

    You shouldn't "need" to get the entire straight wall (area B) down into your case. Use just enough bell to get your bullet started and seated square. Any more than that is just working your brass unnecessarily.

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    That belling funnel is designed for 50AE and the B-C shank will fit properly into a 50AE case and bell it only at the mouth with the taper at airea C. For use with .500” diameter cases simply use the lower A-B section to bell your case as described by SWMN. You can bell the mouth all the way to something about .509” which should be gobs plenty to start a .500” to .502” bullet into the case.


    FWIW:
    With heavy bullet big recoiling handguns like 500, 475, 460, 454 etc. it's a bad idea to open up the brass any more than needed in order to get the bullet started in. You want just enough bell so the bullet starts without shaving off and as small diameter below the bell as possible so bullet presses in under good and tight pressure yet not so tight it swedges the bullet down.

    If you enlarge the case ID and/or bell to much these high recoil heavy bullet guns you can find youself getting bullet creep under recoil real easy. Due to case spring-back you are trying to hold them in place with a weak crimp and little or no press-fit friction along the bullet’s side. One of the fixes for bullet creep is to polish some off the expander ball thereby tightening the bullet/case fit so anything that increases your case ID after the expander ball seems a real bad idea to me.
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    Yes, many of my cartridges are jumping crimp if I load up the cylinder. The bullets is clearly too loose.

    I'll readjust the powder funnel and report back.

    Thanks for the detailed analysis, folks. I really appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arthury View Post


    Referring to the picture above, my original thots were that the flaring/bell is created by the tapered edge at position C.
    Pushing the powder funnel by hand into the resized case, I am encountering resistance even at position A.

    Are you saying that the flaring should be produced by position A and not C? In that case, why does it have a tapered edge?
    I think your right here. the C part does the flare in the case mouth,. The B part enters into the case to establish the inside diameter of the case. You can reduce the diameter of the B part a few thousandths. The flare isn't what causes the bullet to slip it is the B diameter that determines the grip. Also you will need a seperate roll crimp on those big bore loads. I think your lack of good crimp may be the problem here though. Have you got a pic of a loaded round?
    Mike
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    Here're a couple of pics of my handloads ...





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    I have returned the entire set of non-carbide RCBS dies back to Dillon. Not too thrilled with those.

    I have gotten a mixed bag of dies arriving today: RCBS carbide sizing, Redding Seating and Redding Profile Crimp.
    There seems to be quite a few people who are very happy with the Redding Profile Crimp die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    I think your right here. the C part does the flare in the case mouth,. The B part enters into the case to establish the inside diameter of the case. You can reduce the diameter of the B part a few thousandths. The flare isn't what causes the bullet to slip it is the B diameter that determines the grip. Also you will need a seperate roll crimp on those big bore loads. I think your lack of good crimp may be the problem here though. Have you got a pic of a loaded round?
    The belling “flair” definitely contributes to poor crimp hold due to getting more spring back. The more you bell it out the harder you need to squeeze it to move the brass back in to form the crimp, then when you remove the crimping pressure it will open back up more “spring back“ more than if you were moving less marital around. Add to that the crimp squishes into the bullet and the bullet doesn’t spring back and you get a very weekend crimp hold.

    In the pictures you can see this is going on, in the crimp grove there is a mark where the case mouth contacted it during the crimping but now it has sprung back away from contact with the bullet. And there is a rolled over lip on the case mouth from pushing back the excessive belling making that rolled up lip around the mouth like a tint copper tubing double flair. Then there is no shadow line at the bullet base showing me there is little to no case tension holding the bullet side (press fit tension) because the case ID was oversized before the bullet went into it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthury View Post
    I have returned the entire set of non-carbide RCBS dies back to Dillon. Not too thrilled with those.

    I have gotten a mixed bag of dies arriving today: RCBS carbide sizing, Redding Seating and Redding Profile Crimp.
    There seems to be quite a few people who are very happy with the Redding Profile Crimp die.
    Yup Redding profile crimp is very good, I use one for my 460 and 454 stuff. I prefer Lee factory crimp because it irons out any wrinkles made by heavy crimping but they don’t make one in 460 other than a custom order, don’t know if they do in 500 or not but the Redding die works very well so I just went with the full Redding die set for my 460s. I’ve not had the best luck with RCBS handgun resizing dies, they tend to size too small for me for some reason.
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    +1 both of Andy's last two posts. So far I use Redding dies exclusively, and have nothing but good to say about them. I prefer to outside size, expand/flair, charge, and crimp in four seperate functions. Regardless, the Redding profile crimp die will help cure what ails you.
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    Art, Those cartridge pics look as if there is too little crimp. Also you should seat until the bullet is in the middle of the crimp groove, then roll the case mouth in the groove. You can see the mouth rolled into the groove when it's done correctly.

    I just helped (watched) Murphy do several thousand rounds of 500's, different cartridges. He has a commercial biz now making custom ammo. I test fired lots of rounds of S&W, WyEX, and LB 500's. The crimp is rolled into the groove. Cast has better crimp groove but jacketed can be done that way too. The Redding profile crimp is all he uses for everything and these were done on his D650. He might stop by but I think he's on his way to Zambia.

    I can see the bullet bottom on the case wall. It looks very short, not much surface so you'll need to crimp mush more than that. What is that a 300-350 gr bullet?
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    The belling “flair” definitely contributes to poor crimp hold due to getting more spring back. The more you bell it out the harder you need to squeeze it to move the brass back in to form the crimp, then when you remove the crimping pressure it will open back up more “spring back“ more than if you were moving less marital around. Add to that the crimp squishes into the bullet and the bullet doesn’t spring back and you get a very weekend crimp hold.

    In the pictures you can see this is going on, in the crimp grove there is a mark where the case mouth contacted it during the crimping but now it has sprung back away from contact with the bullet. And there is a rolled over lip on the case mouth from pushing back the excessive belling making that rolled up lip around the mouth like a tint copper tubing double flair. Then there is no shadow line at the bullet base showing me there is little to no case tension holding the bullet side (press fit tension) because the case ID was oversized before the bullet went into it.
    Well yes the more it's flared the more you have to squeeze back but the portion of case that is belled is maybe 10% of the total bearing surface of the bullet. One reason why WFN design or any long base section bullet, cast or jacketed, more surface area gripped by the case. I think we just have to work cases more for heavy recoilers. Deep crimp grooves, and long bases hold bullets better. It's true we shouldn't crimp more than necessary to seat without shaving the bullet. Jacketed less than cast flat base bullets.
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    [...] What is that a 300-350 gr bullet?
    It's 350gr Berry's bullet.
    Thanks for the input about the crimp. That crimp came from the RCBS Seat+Crimp die which I have already returned to Dillon.

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