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Thread: Middle Kenai

  1. #1
    Member Danny Boy's Avatar
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    Default Middle Kenai

    With king fishing shut down, how many guides have migrated there pulling plugs?

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    Lots last weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Boy View Post
    With king fishing shut down, how many guides have migrated there pulling plugs?
    Alot on Saturday from what I heard....however on Sunday, it was dead.

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    guides can't fish the river on sunday with paying customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenaibow fan View Post
    guides can't fish the river on sunday with paying customers.
    Sorry, what I meant was a friend who fished it on Sunday said it was dead. You're right guides can't fish on Sundays, which is exactly why my friend went up there on Sunday to fish....he said it was dead. More of a general fishing report.

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    Is the reason its dead because guides killed it? Or because the water is high? Or just some can't fish very well?

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    There are definately fish there.......

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    Is the reason its dead because guides killed it? Or because the water is high? Or just some can't fish very well?
    guides didn't kill it. For the life of me I can't see why people can't see this as an oxymoron. That is like all of us asking to get fired from our jobs. They don't like it any more then we do if the runs stink, if any thing they probably care more then us, it isn't our job to fish.

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    Im not sure a little rainbow killing might not be what the river needs. Now I love the Kenai Rainbows as much, if not more than the next guy/gal, but think of them the same as a K pen Brown bear. We started protecting Brownies 15-20 years ago, and now they are like locust, they are everywhere, and what do they eat, Moose, and alot of them, way more than most people know.Now we cant even hunt Moose, not enough of them. Browse my butt! We started protecting middle river rainbows what, 15-20 years ago? When was it again that the King #'s started to tank? Rainbows/Dollies are the only in river predator of Kings other than us of course, they make there living eating eggs and smolt/fry. I am not saying that this is the only reason for low king #s, but it sure dont help!

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    Default Middle Kenai

    Quote Originally Posted by kenaislider View Post
    Im not sure a little rainbow killing might not be what the river needs. Now I love the Kenai Rainbows as much, if not more than the next guy/gal, but think of them the same as a K pen Brown bear. We started protecting Brownies 15-20 years ago, and now they are like locust, they are everywhere, and what do they eat, Moose, and alot of them, way more than most people know.Now we cant even hunt Moose, not enough of them. Browse my butt! We started protecting middle river rainbows what, 15-20 years ago? When was it again that the King #'s started to tank? Rainbows/Dollies are the only in river predator of Kings other than us of course, they make there living eating eggs and smolt/fry. I am not saying that this is the only reason for low king #s, but it sure dont help!
    Let's see...cormorants, artic terns, mergansers, sculpins, and other smolt...just to name a few!

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    Member DRIFTER_016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Ray View Post
    Let's see...cormorants, artic terns, mergansers, sculpins, and other smolt...just to name a few!
    Whitefish, grayling, reds, silvers, dolly's, eagles.........................................

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    Im sure the fat ass seal I saw power grazing last week on the middle has nothing to do with it either
    Grandkids, Making big tough guys hearts melt at first sight

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Ray View Post
    Let's see...cormorants, artic terns, mergansers, sculpins, and other smolt...just to name a few!
    Yeah water fowl don't help the situation either.

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    Ok my bad, I should have said the biggest, not the only. My point is in the 35 years I have fished the Kenai, the Rainbows are the only thing mentioned here that have increased in #'s. I don't see sculpins,other smolt,grayling,or whitefish being that big of a player. Terns,and other birds take there toll on smolt for sure,but they haven't increased in #'s, there is actually less waterfowl these days. I have not seen seals up there this early,only in the late fall, that is not good. Reds and silvers? I am guessing you mean when they are smolt? Either way not a big player. Like I said earlier, I love that middle river rainbow fishing more than anyone, and have never killed one,but I remember when a lot of people did.

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    Member kenaibow fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenaislider View Post
    Ok my bad, I should have said the biggest, not the only. My point is in the 35 years I have fished the Kenai, the Rainbows are the only thing mentioned here that have increased in #'s. I don't see sculpins,other smolt,grayling,or whitefish being that big of a player. Terns,and other birds take there toll on smolt for sure,but they haven't increased in #'s, there is actually less waterfowl these days. I have not seen seals up there this early,only in the late fall, that is not good. Reds and silvers? I am guessing you mean when they are smolt? Either way not a big player. Like I said earlier, I love that middle river rainbow fishing more than anyone, and have never killed one,but I remember when a lot of people did.
    this sounds like very valuable information to people who don't see the river everyday or every year. But I do see seals up there pretty much from july till nov. and I am sure they are there in dec.

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    Member DRIFTER_016's Avatar
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    Any fish whether smolt or fully grown that are in the sytem when the salmon are laying eggs can and will feed on said eggs.
    Each one of those eggs that are eaten will not produce a fish obviously.

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    Thumbs down And the beat goes on . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by kenaibow fan View Post
    . . guides didn't kill it. For the life of me I can't see why people can't see this as an oxymoron. That is like all of us asking to get fired from our jobs. They don't like it any more then we do if the runs stink, if any thing they probably care more then us, it isn't our job to fish.
    Whether or not or to what degree the guides or whomever "killed it," no one, no user group wants to see the fishery closed. But that is exactly the why the Tragedy of the Commons is such a tragedy.

    The tragedy of the commons is a dilemma arising from the situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource, even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen.
    When multiple individuals comprising multiple user groups share a common resource as is the Kenai king fishery, it is in each individual's self-interest to harvest the next king salmon even though the overall quality of the fishery is damaged as a result. The fisherman, whether he be a guide or a dip-netter or a sport-fisher or whatever receives all the benefit of the harvested salmon while the damage to the fishery is shared by all user groups. Thus, if all users make the rational economic decision to harvest a king salmon to accommodate their self-interests, the resource will ultimately be destroyed to the detriment of all users.

    And here we are. The fishery is in trouble, big trouble, and the sensible thing to do would be to close the fishery until and if it recovers. But that is not what is happening because it is in each individual's economic self-interest to keep on fishing, and ADF&G, the guardians of the commons, are under intense political pressure to allow continued use of the resource in order to pander to the self-interests of the various user-groups.

    So while we are hearing sanctimonious pleas to "do the right thing" by taking it easy on the fish or some other such meaningless nonsense, the fishing will continue. The guides are still fishing, the fishNaddiction people are still fishing, the catch-and-release people are still fishing, and the kings are still being killed. We're seeing the Tragedy of the Commons played out in real time, right here, right now.

    Some few are declining to participate.

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    Blah Blah Blah

  19. #19
    Member Danny Boy's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree more, Marcus. I know every user group has an impact on king salmon. Perhaps it's cyclical as has been noted with correlation between Pac NW and Alaskan king runs. Maybe changes in water temps have sent food sources away from traditional feeding grounds. Or it could be that they're getting hammered in international waters or bycatch is taking its toll. Or maybe we're the ones fuqqing it up. Is there no way to track kings from their in-river juvenile to stage to their ocean lives to possibly obtain the bigger picture?

    I do know that nobody has an ownership claim, that guides need to pay their bills and that's why a rush to the Middle to plug rainbows took place. I only wonder what kind of impact will be seen on the Skilak to Bing's rainbows if king numbers continue to force guides and tourists who still want to experience the Kenai in a productive manner to other stretches of the river. That doesn't mean I have to stomach it without sharing my distaste. The Middle does see a lot of traffic but it is the lone stretch of water I still find some peace on. The upper is highly congested and Sportsman's to Jim's is neither long enough nor wide enough to still enjoy a chance at fishing every hole without overcrowding. We all know the state of the lower river and what a zoo it is. I spend little time on the upper and lower portions for these reasons. Move elsewhere... that might be the response of some, but I've lived here nearly thirty years and work here and had a house built here because I love fly fishing for Kenai River rainbows. The notion of king guides moving up to the Middle because the lower river is decimated isn't very palatable.

    As for the idea of bonking rainbows, I'd bet king numbers were just fine when nobody was fishing either speciewhen this place was virtually uninhabited.

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    Question The beat goes on . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Boy View Post
    . . We all know the state of the lower river and what a zoo it is. . .
    Isn't Kenai River Sportfishing Association's "Kenai Classic" fishing this week? Where will they be fishing? How many guide boats will KRSA be employing for their "event"?

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