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Thread: Battle weapons

  1. #1
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Default Battle weapons

    Look at the first few years of these pics and see what you notice on weapon use.
    http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured...689/#more-5689
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    They're almost all 30 caliber guns, and/or almost all WWII era guns, but I don't see that as anything significant. 30 caliber was the predominant caliber in use, even at the time these photos were taken. These photos are all from early in the war (pre 1968) or are of South Vietnamese troops, whom we armed with WWII era (i.e. 30 caliber) guns. Had these photos been taken of US soldiers after 1967 or 68, they would have all been AR15s. Historically speaking, there is nothing out of place here.

    On a side note, thanks for the link. This is something for use in my history classroom. The futility of war.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Notice the ARVN's in 64 are carring the AR while the American Special Forces types carry the M-14. The Airforce and ARVN's were the proving ground to battle test the rifle that was forced on Marines in 67. Wonder who got what outside of Colt to push it through.Never in history have I heard of giving the allies better weapons than your own fighting men carried.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    I love the AR-platform, however not super sure it is a better "battle rifle" than the M-14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    I love the AR-platform, however not super sure it is a better "battle rifle" than the M-14
    As always old timer, you hit the nail on the head. come get some money too

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    Depends upon what battle you're in.....they both have their place.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Depends upon what battle you're in.....they both have their place.
    Quite true...thats why their both issued.

    Of course, the whole debate about battle rifles ignores the fact that the rifle qua rifle last made a difference in battle at Mons

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildalaska View Post
    Quite true...thats why their both issued.

    Of course, the whole debate about battle rifles ignores the fact that the rifle qua rifle last made a difference in battle at Mons
    Not sure I would agree with that!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbh40 View Post
    Not sure I would agree with that!!
    Traditional Wars are won by inflicting casualties on the enemy, by breaking his will to resist, and by seizing territory. The rifle is a tool, but not the one that counts.

    Arty. Machine Guns. Armour. Air Power. And now...Drones. Thats what counts.

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    I had a Colt slick side M-16, green tri-angle handguard furniture wrapped with green electrical tape, rack #5.

    It was a fine weapon...I cleaned it every night because that's what my Dad taught me to do and it always worked when needed. NO AR's there that I know of anyway.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I had a Colt slick side M-16, green tri-angle handguard furniture wrapped with green electrical tape, rack #5.

    It was a fine weapon...I cleaned it every night because that's what my Dad taught me to do and it always worked when needed. NO AR's there that I know of anyway.

    So, you are stating that there is "NO" Platform similarity between AR Platform and M-16 Platform............????

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    The Armalite Rifle (AR) is generally considered the semi-auto version of the M-16 and it is pretty much an exact copy of the M-16 except for the lower, bolt carrier and fire control group....parts are interchangeble for the most part.

    Point I was making was I did not see any semi-auto guns that look like an M-16.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildalaska View Post
    Traditional Wars are won by inflicting casualties on the enemy, by breaking his will to resist, and by seizing territory. The rifle is a tool, but not the one that counts.

    Arty. Machine Guns. Armour. Air Power. And now...Drones. Thats what counts.
    That is my point. You stated that Mons was the last battle where the rifle was a 'decider' when actually it was the morale, training and will of the British (and French to a degree) against an overwhelming German force that proved 'victorious'. Victorious in terms of inflicting massive casualties on the enemy and breaking their Morale, but defeated in terms of nedding to retreat in fear of being over-run.


    But to say it is the last battle where the rifle was decisive is just folly. Read the details of the Falklands conflict and you will again see many battles where men armed with nought but 'Battle Rifles' overcame a much larger enemy force. The British had little in terms of modern support weapons in comparison to the Argentine occupiers.

    Notably however I would suggest that the Falklands was the last conflict where the rifle was a true decider in many battles and most notably the caliber............7.62 x 51.


    The point is (which we both agree on I think) that I cannot recall any truly decisive 'infantry' battle where the 5.56 has proved to be a deciding and overwhelming factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    The Armalite Rifle (AR) is generally considered the semi-auto version of the M-16 and it is pretty much an exact copy of the M-16 except for the lower, bolt carrier and fire control group....parts are interchangeble for the most part.

    Point I was making was I did not see any semi-auto guns that look like an M-16.
    Please NOTE: I say nothing about AR-15. I spoke to the AR Platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Please NOTE: I say nothing about AR-15. I spoke to the AR Platform.
    I stand corrected.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The first AR's we got to test were the AR15 and Stoner 9 in 1. The AR 15's we received had selector switches and no forward assist. Back during Viet Nam if I remember correct in grunt squads not all carried full auto capable rifles. The M-14 came standard as semi auto but a selector switch was easy to change out.
    I believe no war can be won with anything other than common sense by the fighting groups leaders both saying lets stop at the same time.Untill then only the fighting man on the ground can win battles.
    My question was if the AR was the best why did the government give it to the ARVN's two years before giving it to Americans.Pic nine has a ARVN with the AR
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by nbh40 View Post
    That is my point. You stated that Mons was the last battle where the rifle was a 'decider' when actually it was the morale, training and will of the British (and French to a degree) against an overwhelming German force that proved 'victorious'. Victorious in terms of inflicting massive casualties on the enemy and breaking their Morale, but defeated in terms of nedding to retreat in fear of being over-run.


    But to say it is the last battle where the rifle was decisive is just folly. Read the details of the Falklands conflict and you will again see many battles where men armed with nought but 'Battle Rifles' overcame a much larger enemy force. The British had little in terms of modern support weapons in comparison to the Argentine occupiers.

    Notably however I would suggest that the Falklands was the last conflict where the rifle was a true decider in many battles and most notably the caliber............7.62 x 51.


    The point is (which we both agree on I think) that I cannot recall any truly decisive 'infantry' battle where the 5.56 has proved to be a deciding and overwhelming factor.
    Your confusing tangiblers and intangibles. In point of fact, the British were outnumbered and outgunned by way of artillery and machine guns...however, the SMLE was capable of high rates of fire and thus gave the Brits the firepower they needed to retreat instead of be routed.

    That was the end of the decisiveness of the rifle in warfare as technology took over thereafter. I think you are mistaken about the role of naval, air and artillery in the Falklands by the way

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    They could have shelled and bombed Iwo for twenty years but until the rifle hit the ground the battle would not have been won. We bombed Viet Nam forever but most enemy dead came also from the rifle.Today we use smart bombs but until the clearing of the bombed area and last firefight with rifles the battle is undecided.
    All wars should be handled by the two leaders meeting up and ***** slapping each other till one gives up
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    A little clarification on what "was" the AR-15 vs. what the AR-15 is today. The original AR-15 was a select fire weapon. In 1963, after Colt bought the rights from Armalite, they produced what we know today as the civilian AR-15 (semi-auto). The weapon produced for the military became the XM-16, then the M-16.

    The US Air Force completed tests of the AR-15 in January 1961. The US Air Force push, led by the Commander of US Air Force Strategic Air Command, was to replace the existing M2 carbines then in use by the USAF Air Police with the AR-15. The US Air Force attempted first to purchase 8,500 rifles in 1961, but had the funding denied. Not until August 1962 was the contract formally awarded to Colt. The last of the weapons were recieved in 1963 and the weapon was standardized the AR-15. With no modifications made to the basic commerical offering, no military designation was applied to the weapon by any of ther services.
    Here is a good link to the history. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...16-history.htm

    BTW.. the U.S. Airforce still has AR-15 marked lowers in their inventory to this day... http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildalaska View Post
    Your confusing tangiblers and intangibles. In point of fact, the British were outnumbered and outgunned by way of artillery and machine guns...however, the SMLE was capable of high rates of fire and thus gave the Brits the firepower they needed to retreat instead of be routed.

    That was the end of the decisiveness of the rifle in warfare as technology took over thereafter. I think you are mistaken about the role of naval, air and artillery in the Falklands by the way
    I do not wish to get in a p*^%ing contest on this, but having spent over 2 years (numerous detachments) to the Falklands, walked every battlefield at least 3 times and hosted numerous battlefield tours, I KNOW that I am not mistaken about the decisiveness of the rifle in that conflict. In point of fact, the bombing runs on Stanley airport had only a fraction of the desired effect, naval and artillery bombardments had little of the desired effect due to the soft ground. Most of the ground was taken, including Stanley, with bayonets fixed. True infantry, battalion level 'pincer' movements were undertaken to secure key ground. The logististics issues (due to remoteness from UK), loss of key Support Weapons, Naval Gunfire Support and Combat Service Support (such as Support Helos and Vehicles) to Mirage/Exocet bombings caused on over-whelming reliance on infantry ops.
    Yes there had been a degree of softening up of the Argentines, but few casualties were inflicted and no ground taken until the boots hit the ground and bayonets were fixed.

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