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Thread: Just got my copy of quickload, and now I'm freaked out

  1. #1
    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Default Just got my copy of quickload, and now I'm freaked out

    I plugged the numbers of my pet 35 Whelen load into quickload, and adjusted the parameters of my case capacity and seating depth, and QL shows me at over 70,000 PSI!

    Here's the load:

    310 gr Woodleigh Weldcore
    56.4 gr RL-15
    3.375 COAL
    CCI large rifle primer

    2350 fps actual
    24" Ruger Hawkeye 1/12 twist

    Woodleigh says 57.0 is max with RL-15. Last year, I used the ladder method to work up from 52.0 gr to 57.0 grains of R15. I got the best accuracy with 56.4. I have ABSOLUTELY NO high pressure signs from the load... no flattened primers, sticky bolt, anything... seems like I have a winner (also got a moose with it- full pass through, DRT at 80 yards).

    But obviously, QL says I'm lucky to be alive. Anyone got ideas/ experience with this?

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Screw quick load. Don't believe that crap. Keep using your pet load. Do you honestly think the pressure is that high? Quick load has been proven many times over, to be a guesstimate that's frequently off. Quickload has done one thing, it's made a whole genre of internet ballisticians (if that's a word).

    There is no substitute for real world load development. To prove to yourself that your very appealing 35 whelen load is safe, reload one brass case with the same charge, over n over. See how many firings you get. I bet you'll see well over 6 firings. What you'll find, is you're one of the guys who stepped out of the multiple safety buffers, grew a pair, and made a handload that actually achieves the potential that the 35 Whelen is capable of.

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    I would guess the computer doesnt like your 1/12 twist and 310g bullet @ 2350fps combo. But if I had data for it and it works in the gun Id use it because the computer is only guessing at pressure and Woodleigh would have tested the load. The program is likely guessing to the high end so that you dont work up a dangerous load on a guess.

    35 Whelen is SAAMI 58K cip but the Ruger is at least 65K with a +50% proof margin because of the other rounds it takes, so I dont see why you should be dead even if you are at 70Kpsi which I doubt you are. No pressure signs I wouldnt worry, Id trust my real world data just like Id not go over the bullet makers data if the computer told me it was only 49Kpsi.

    Bottom line to me is real world tested data from Woodleigh trumps a computer's guess work unless you are seeing some pressure sign to back up the computer guess in the real world.
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    You could be at 70,000 psi. Lots of loads are. BUT, QL's figures are not a way to know. Neither are pressure signs, unless you HAVE pressure signs.

    I tried using QL, someone else's copy for awhile, and it was educational, but not at all trustworthy.

    It will seem to be right on with some loads, and you might learn to trust it, and it'll fool you.

    I decided it was a dangerous program, because it predicted pressure, which cannot be accurately predicted no matter how you juggle the inputs into a computer program.

    Loading data, and the velocity is a better way to determining pressure. Actually, velocity can be a "pressure sign".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    I plugged the numbers of my pet 35 Whelen load into quickload and QL shows me at over 70,000 PSI!..... I have ABSOLUTELY NO high pressure signs from the load... no flattened primers, sticky bolt, anything...
    I'd be hard pressed to believe at 70K PSI you wouldn't have pressure signs aplenty....I'd likely not worry about it unless you think something is amiss with your load. I get cratered primers on some of my WSM loads and they're in book....my guess at that pressure you'd have more signs than that!
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Do what you want in regards to QL but here is some recent pressure tested loads foer the 35 Whelen and your RL-15 powder.

    These are pressure tested with a piezo crystal transducer.
    Nosler 250 grain partition bullet CCI=200 primer RL-15 powder 53.0 grains, velocity 2491 fps, mean peak pressure 58,600 psi

    Swift 250 grain A-frame bullet, CCI-200 primer, RL-15 powder 54.0 grains, velocity 2421 fps, mean peak pressure 59,100 psi

    Hornady 250 grain SP bullet, CCI-200 primer, RL-15 powder 55.0 grains, velocity 2504 fps, mean peak pressure 58,700 psi

    As you can see, at max pressure (60,000 psi), with 250 grain bullets, we use about 53 to 55 grains so I would say that with a 310 grain bullet and 56.0 grains 70,000 psi is very believable. And for those pressure sign readers I'll say I ran a batch yesterday that showed no pressure signs on case or primer and some were 81,000 to 84,000 psi.

    Now it's possible that a particular batch of RL-15 is slightly slower and your pressures are safe...then I look at the velocity of the 310 grain bullet at 2350 fps and I will say I can say with a high degree of certainty that your pressure is over 60K.. Best of luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Screw quick load. Don't believe that crap. Keep using your pet load. Do you honestly think the pressure is that high? Quick load has been proven many times over, to be a guesstimate that's frequently off. Quickload has done one thing, it's made a whole genre of internet ballisticians (if that's a word).

    There is no substitute for real world load development. To prove to yourself that your very appealing 35 whelen load is safe, reload one brass case with the same charge, over n over. See how many firings you get. I bet you'll see well over 6 firings. What you'll find, is you're one of the guys who stepped out of the multiple safety buffers, grew a pair, and made a handload that actually achieves the potential that the 35 Whelen is capable of.
    Its a good thing rifles are made plenty strong. Most will hold together up to about 90,000 psi before things start to break.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    You could be at 70,000 psi. Lots of loads are. BUT, QL's figures are not a way to know. Neither are pressure signs, unless you HAVE pressure signs.

    I tried using QL, someone else's copy for awhile, and it was educational, but not at all trustworthy.

    It will seem to be right on with some loads, and you might learn to trust it, and it'll fool you.

    I decided it was a dangerous program, because it predicted pressure, which cannot be accurately predicted no matter how you juggle the inputs into a computer program.

    Loading data, and the velocity is a better way to determining pressure. Actually, velocity can be a "pressure sign".

    Smitty of the North
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    Member Akheloce's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input guys, no offense to anyone else who replied, but I'm going to go with Murphy's advice every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


    Ill unload the last 6 rounds I have loaded, and start over.

    Im just kind of pissed that a reputable company like Woodleigh would list 57.0 grains as a max, and be so far above SAAMI... I'm ok with "a scosche" over SAAMI when it makes a difference, but I really don't want do shorten the life of a great rifle.

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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
    Im just kind of pissed that a reputable company like Woodleigh would list 57.0 grains as a max, and be so far above SAAMI... I'm ok with "a scosche" over SAAMI when it makes a difference, but I really don't want do shorten the life of a great rifle.
    In today's world, you think a bullet company would actually do that? I doubt it. They have the charge listed as it is because they know what they are doing, I'm sure. Do you have access to any old reloading books? Take a look at some of the velocity speeds vs. the weak numbers you find in today's manuals. You got sue-happy people and lawyers to thank for all of that. I always now start a grain below max and keep going until I find pressure.

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    I find QL to be a useful tool in load developmewnt, especially for when I am extrapolating or for strange cartridges. If all the parameters are right, as least as to the cartridges I am loading for, QL predictions come close to chronographed velocities.

    Data changes. One of my 6.5x55 loads which WAS way under max via one source is now OVER max. Could be due to powder lot variations.

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    Member GD Yankee's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, reloading IS rocket science. Akheloce, I think you're doing the right thing by ditching your loaded rounds.

    My 9.3x62 load for a 286 grain bullet is very close to your RE-15 Whelen load. So, it wouldn't make sense for a 310 grain bullet in a Whelen to increase the powder - decreased powder charges would make more sense.

    For a long time I considered building a 35 Whelen and the more I looked at it, the 9.3x62 is what the Whelen "should" be as far as case capacities and velocity. The 358 Win is very close to the Whelen in the mid range bullet weight velocities. I briefly considered going with a 358 Norma since it could drive the heavy bullets faster. In the end I made up a 358 Win and a 9.3x62. They perform as advertised in the bullet manufacturers manuals.

    I appreciate the experience of all the guys who load past the manual maximums, but unless you have a strain gauge like this:

    http://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/...tegory_Code=PT

    you are just performing rocket science in the blind. One trip to the emergency room would more than cover the cost of the equipment.

    The loading manual's data reflect the companies test guns. I tried developing a 9.3x62 load with a Barnes 286 grain TSX. The velocities were pathetic and 2-300 FPS below advertised. I wrote Barnes and they said it could be due to a number of factors including chamber size and leade position. He said their test gun was a minimum SAAMI chamber and my chamber could be larger. He recommended comparing other manual data with theirs and slowly work up a load which would bring the velocities up towards their published data - watching for pressure signs.

    I couldn't find the article online, but a magazine article covered this topic and showed that over pressure loads didn't always show ANY classic pressure signs. The fired cartridge looked perfectly normal, but strain gauge testing showed over pressure.

    Do what you want, but straying past the published limits and using QL with out comparing it to other sources is unwise. Like they had on the old maps past the edges of known country: there be dragons.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    In today's world, you think a bullet company would actually do that? I doubt it. They have the charge listed as it is because they know what they are doing, I'm sure.
    You shouldn't be so sure. I have found data published in a manual from "today's world", the starting loads of which will lock up the bolt in my gun. Blindly trusting any published data on the premise that "they know what they are doing" is a fools errand.

    Good advice in posts 4, 6, 7, 12...
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    You wouldn't know.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    You wouldn't know.
    lol! Best luck to you friend.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    There are something like two dozen discrete signs of excessive pressure. If you have gone down the list and found none, I would believe what my brass, velocity, primers and gun tell me over what Quickload reports.

    There are things to do with your individual gun that Quickload cannot take into account. How much freebore do you have?

    Be careful, of course, but don't give up on a carefully worked up load that performs well, accurately and, until now, without alarm bells just because of what some computer program says.

    Of course, if your rifle has lower pressure by virtue of a generous bore or particular chamber dimensions, I would not shoot that ammo in any other gun unless the gun has been "worked up" to that load.

    Put another way. If your car is safe around a curve at 40 mph with ordinary tires, you can be just as safe at 55 if you switch to stickier rubber. What the caution sign ("This Curve 40 MPH") says, which is comparable to Quickload, notwithstanding. Just make sure you tune your suspension.

    Personally, I am with you and Murphy. I don't push power envelopes. If I want more power, I get a bigger gun. But I recognize that pushing the envelope can be done safely IF YOU DO IT SAFELY.

    Good luck. "Discretion is the better part of valor." so, if you are unsure of your load now, work up another with my blessing that you are confident is safe.

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    There are many good opinions and useful info about pressure signs and such and i am well aware of them and use them too but the biggest issue with this load before QL came into the picture is that of the velocity with that 310 grain bullet weight. I'm willing to bet that bullet will not be pushed to that velocity of 2350 in that case with that powder at or below 60k psi. Ain't gonna happen. There is a finite limit to what you can do within the envelope of operating pressures. Yes there are many variables, chamber dimensions, free bore, barrel dimensions, that will allow you to use more powder than is listed as max, and stay within pressure limits, but, if those things exist both pressure and velocity will be lower. A .358", 310 grain bullet at 2350 fps from the Whelen case (06) is not within that realm. Quick Load is a good tool, I've used it and find it useful on some loadings but when conflicts arise I'll stick to what I know will work....common sense and decades of experience behind pressure and velocity instruments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    You shouldn't be so sure. I have found data published in a manual from "today's world", the starting loads of which will lock up the bolt in my gun. Blindly trusting any published data on the premise that "they know what they are doing" is a fools errand.

    Good advice in posts 4, 6, 7, 12...
    I had a Rem 700 in 300WM that went WAY overpressure not even close to max loads.Some factory ammo(Black Hills 190gr Match) also was very sticky extraction.After reloading for over 20yrs at that time,this was the first time I'd encountered this with one of my rifles.

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