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Thread: Tongass-A (Second-growth) Cabin in the Woods

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    Default Tongass-A (Second-growth) Cabin in the Woods

    Past logging practices in the Tongass National Forest have been hard on fish and wildlife, but all the second-growth forest that's grown up where the big trees once grew is ready for restoration. Soon, these trees will be large enough to use for valuable products. A beautiful cabin now under construction in Gustavus, with logs from Prince of Wales Island, is built with the logs that were thinned to hasten the forest's return to old-growth conditions. Restoration projects like this one do provide some jobs and they are one part of the Tongass' transition to a more sustainable way of managing forests.
    There's a good forest science explanation here, along with a slideshow of the cabin under construction.

    nature.org/tongasscabin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Past logging practices in the Tongass National Forest have been hard on fish and wildlife, but all the second-growth forest that's grown up where the big trees once grew is ready for restoration. Soon, these trees will be large enough to use for valuable products. A beautiful cabin now under construction in Gustavus, with logs from Prince of Wales Island, is built with the logs that were thinned to hasten the forest's return to old-growth conditions. Restoration projects like this one do provide some jobs and they are one part of the Tongass' transition to a more sustainable way of managing forests.
    There's a good forest science explanation here, along with a slideshow of the cabin under construction.
    nature.org/tongasscabin
    I call BS on your post. The Tongass National Forest, and the communities located within it, used to be a thriving area, with strong populations of fish and wildlife and many year-round jobs that could support families and their towns. It's organizations like yours that shut down that way of life and turned these communities into tourist-traps that have mainly seasonal jobs now. So don't be tooting your horn about projects that "provide some jobs" and are "part of the Tongass' transition."

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    And I have to call BS on yours. Logging isn't a year round job. I'm not a fan of either approach. Old Growth logging is neccesary but clearcutting is not. Selective harvest would bring in more jobs and not trash the Tongass. The Papac crew on POW clearcut and the logs went straight to a ship overseas and the crew headed back South cursing AK as they left. We need industries to utilize the products and cutters who care about this place. Our forests are too valuable to be pulp. I would love to see all the old growth spruce go into tone woods use (guitar tops, sound boards etc...), antique plane restoration etc... The Cedars for building shakes, shingles and beams. I'd like to see harvest limited to salvage and in tact harvest on a no trees cut within 50' of a stump basis. Lots of room for lots of small scale operations. None for the grip it and rip it exporters from the lesser 48.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    And I have to call BS on yours. Logging isn't a year round job. I'm not a fan of either approach. Old Growth logging is neccesary but clearcutting is not.
    Logging was a year-round job. It was mostly native lands that was being clearcut. Before the native lands, the Maybeso in Harris River was clearcut back in the 1950s and you can't tell that isn't old growth....just a barely faint color difference between the second growth and old growth when looked at from the air.

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    I lived in both the north and south Tongass forests. Southeast Alaska was a thriving region with lumber camps and floating communities and roads. Logging employed blue collar people all over the region for more than just the summer months. Furthermore the USFS was busy building cabins and encouraging recreation on the old logging roads. I agree that the logging companies and the USFS should have been more careful with logging procedures, especially in regard to clear cutting and selling timber so cheap to pulp and lumber companies (most of which went to Japan), but to have shut it down so completely on national forest lands, as happened under the Clinton administration, was gross overkill at the behest of the environmentalist concerns and was wrong policy. A balance should have been struck between logging and conservation, but instead SE must now depend upon tourism and wildlife watching and wealthy California expatriots, while regular families have had to move away in search of other ways to make a living, or to other logging in WA, OR and Canada. That is a shame IMO, but it is happening in one way or another all over coastal Alaska where traditional ways of making a living are being squelched.

    Alaska used to be a very exciting place to live in the 60s-80s... now I sometimes wonder if I'm still living in the same state.

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    You can sure tell when your in it! There are clearcuts everywhere here, absoluetly not just native lands, that's 100 percent wrong. They suck to get around in for you and big game.

    There is obvioulsy sufficient logging activity that almost all the cutters here are from down South (though there are plenty of local millers). There are plenty of big sales going through, Tonka in this neck of the woods for one, Central Kupreanof for another.

    Google Earth looks like a golf course around the Tongass! Let alone walking in it.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    Alaska used to be a very exciting place to live in the 60s-80s... now I sometimes wonder if I'm still living in the same state.
    Good choice of adjective. It certainly was that, but I don't know that it was necessarily a better place to live in those regards. I can live without the hard living, hell on wheels mentality that predominated then. There is plenty of room for those who do it right, right now. FWIW our region is growing, not shrinking.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Considering that old growth is five hundred plus years old It won't ever be back while humans roam.The forrest don't need man to cull second growth as nature did it a million years before the forrest dis-service. All of our clear cutting in on fed land making the land cut worthless to everything except devils club as all the trimming and so called trash wood is left laying as it falls.Folks don't realize a three foot thick tree is new growth and not a majestic old growth which will be up to eight foot diameter in the S.E..Very few of our logs put a single dollar into our town,all going south.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Seriously, for those who haven't, pull up google earth or google maps and look at the areas around Wrangell and Petersburg (or Hoonah for that matter!). They seriously look like golf courses and the logging service is not even close to done with them. Pristine Alaskan wilderness? It will change your view. Now contemplate that each Tongass Logging job is subsidized to the tune of something like $100K when all the math is done.

    I have my chainsaws (large and small, Husky and Stihl) and love to cut wood and fall trees, but I love this area and would like to see what's left left so my kids can still find some massive trees even if they are few and far between anymore. They had a good run and cut a ton, too much, but there isn't enough left to sustain it again.

    They wouldn't have lasted long even without the restrictions because they wouldn't have had anything left. The sad truth is that the beach logging is long since done and there isn't marketable timber there anymore, now it's getting to where roads have to be built and helocopters used to get to what wasn't as profitable when the door was wide open. Now it's all that's left of the massive old growth. Ask any old time logger and they'll tell you how hard they have to work now to get at the big stuff anymore. The biggest log I've seen in years is the log by the covered bench at the Mendenhall Wetlands trail in Juneau: .__480_347_091609_Sofie-at-dike-log.jpg The shore along Zarembo Highway is lined with a few that got away from rafts. The largest I've seen still growing are under 4' diameter in pockets that were missed or too costly to access. It is easy to find large stumps though, some of which still sport notches from springboards.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Default Growth?

    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    FWIW our region is growing, not shrinking.
    Rural Cleansing is what I call it. The Census Bureau had the 2000 Prince of Wales-Outer Ketchikan Census Area population at 6,146 souls. In 2010, the Prince of Wales Census Subarea population was 4,012. In 2000, the census area was much larger and included land that is now part of the Ketchikan Gateway Borough. Even with the KBG annexation, there is less people on POW currently than there was 10 years ago. If I had more time, it would be interesting to go back farther and look at the metrics from the 80's when the Isle had a healthy and vibrant economy. Then again, so much of the population of that era were seasonal out-of-state workers.

    What do you mean when you say your region is growing?

    Coaldust

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    Both Wrangell and Petersburg are growing. That is the region I was speaking of, central Southeast.

    I would love to see the capital move out of Juneau and rid Southeast of the clingers on. I would love it if we could stop out of staters from siphoning the profits from our resources. I would love to see our timber treated like our salmon and marketed as the best of the best and not chopped up and sold as scrap. If not, it's worth more on the stump to me. Same deal with fish if we could figure out expensive out of state commercial licensing.

    I'd have to look at census data to know what the rest of southeast is doing but I know in general it is slightly shrinking in population (which I see as a great thing). I don't want the roaring days back with double the local population and money ruling everything. Maybe some do.

    I think it should cost something by way of sacrifice to live here. I can't believe how many "true blue" Alaskans spend years on these forums trying to convince everybody how Alaskan they are only to turn around and leave for a job offer or what have you and forget all about that nonsense.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Actually the 2010-2011 change is up for Southeast as a whole and POW in particular (+3.59%), as well as Haines (+3.49%), and Juneau (+2.55%). Wrangell is +1.41% and Petersburg +2.80%. And if you live in these towns you can feel it and see it.

    Of course it's largely based around capital projects and economic refugees from down South, and that may not last as oil prices come down and world economies stagnate (thus tourism), but I guess we'll see.

    Like I said, I think it should cost something to live here. We should have to sacrifice the lower 48 norms. I see far too many people that want to bring big government up with them and civilize things with yet more programs. I am appalled at how many are pro-borough formation whose fathers would roll over in their graves at the thought of it. It's they who aren't content with things the way they are, that want to change it to be more like down South. No thanks. This is the last refuge for people that don't want an eternal tax lean on their property and planning and zoning and permitting etc... but for those that want lots of governmnet take your pick there are millions of places to go and I would hope that any such would find them quick.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Wrangell is down a few hundred folks these last few years.Census numbers look up maybe because of the cannery workers and six month long census to raise numbers for voting districts.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I would love to see SE/interior be like the north and south of other states and they can keep the oil money.The blue canoe can go and take Alaska Airlines with it.Tourist can keep bringing dollars like the last couple hundred years and then go home.Reopen trade with Telegraph creek more like the old days. If government paid jobs left here two thirds of the people would also.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Past logging practices in the Tongass National Forest have been hard on fish and wildlife, but all the second-growth forest that's grown up where the big trees once grew is ready for restoration. Soon, these trees will be large enough to use for valuable products. A beautiful cabin now under construction in Gustavus, with logs from Prince of Wales Island, is built with the logs that were thinned to hasten the forest's return to old-growth conditions. Restoration projects like this one do provide some jobs and they are one part of the Tongass' transition to a more sustainable way of managing forests.
    There's a good forest science explanation here, along with a slideshow of the cabin under construction.

    nature.org/tongasscabin
    Total BS,

    Y'all are the biggest crooks of all. I've been tracking non-profits for quite some time, and you guys are the foundation of corruption.....the definition if you will.

    With you org. reeling in $860,000,000 a year, and your 20+ board members all receiving well over $200,000 a year.........that stupid log cabin is the highlight of your work?

    You guys are too selfish, too powerful, and too corrupt to come on this forum like wolves disguised as sheep. Carry on with your BS though........

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    I'm not quite following this thread and I guess I should reread it all. So some of you are all for logging, but against clear cuts? In the SE AK terrain I believe it is the only way to make a profit. Leave some of the big clear straight boys for seed trees.

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    If that's the only way to make a profit then there is something majorly wrong with macroeconomics (cough cough). They are worth more on the stump in that case for my taste. But then I think that there is a good market for selective logging in the Tongass if done right and there is an ever increasing demand from small mills that prove me out. The Logging Service has been very slow to respond to ther demands for smaller timber sales (heck they have taken years to address a simple roadless matter with me). I love cutting down trees, but I love the Tongass and the deer here. Clear-cutting is lame and people should be embarrased to participate in it. With inflation that's my, well, 2 cents (have you priced copper or zinc lately?).
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    I..have you priced copper or zinc lately?).
    Not allowed to mine copper in Alaska. Salmon can't stand it (says the ad), but we can always get it from other other countries (plenty of it there says the ad).

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Regretfully clear cut in the SE means the area looks like a hurricane just came through the area and the land is useless for game and man. Now if the land was really cleared off of everything that hit the ground I would like to have abit more of it..
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Good point Will. I totally agree. I am not against the land finding a better use at all, just a worse one. Putting folks on it making a good life there is always highest best use in my book.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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