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Thread: Super Redhawk question

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    Default Super Redhawk question

    Anyone happen to know the Rockwell hardness of a 15-5 stainless 454 cylinder? Am I correct that they are about a 35 or so, and not heat treated?

    If ya don't know then does somebody have a Rockwell tester in Anchorage or am I stuck sendin it to my brother in-law AZ.
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    According to this the cylinder is made from "Carpenter Technology Corporation's Custom 465ģ stainless steel and heat treated." Can't tell you the hardness, but it's proof-tested to 93,500psi according to Beartooth Bullets.
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    You are correct, 465 in the cylinder and 7000 in the barrel. Donít know why I type 15-5, me and this keyboard often donít get along and I just ordered some 15-5 last night so had it in my head anyway. Anyway surprisingly the cylinders I have arenít very hard, canít be more than 40 and fully annealed the 465 is supposed to be 32-35 C scale.

    Anyway, Iíll be getting my answer in a couple days I think, I just found out my brother in-law has lunch every Tuesday with one of Rugerís engenderers that he does prototyping work for at Ruger Prescott AZ plant.
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    An interesting Stainless in that it is most often described as "springy." I suspect fully hardening it would be detrimental and cause problems. Who know's? I would love to hear what you find out here.
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    I think some of the advanced ss alloys have fairly complex heat treating processes, so doing a rockwell hardness test isn't going to give you the full picture of how it was heat treated, nor it's ultimate strength.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

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    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    Properties data sheet:
    http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.as...e=55&c=TechArt
    Tech articles
    http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1472
    http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1608
    ďAfter machining, Ruger heat treated the cylinders in accordance with the schedule suggested by Carpenter to optimize essential mechanical properties, particularly strength and toughness.Ē

    ďThe H950 condition (510ļC) is most commonly used to get higher strength together with good toughness and excellent notch tensile strength.Ē
    ďCustom 465 stainless is capable of ultimate tensile strength in excess of 250 ksi (1722 MPa) when aged at 950įF (H950 condition). This strength is higher than that of any other historically available precipitation-hardenable (PH) stainless steel long product (Fig. 2). Aging temperatures ranging from 950įF to 1050įF can be selected in order to achieve the desired balance of strength, toughness and stress corrosion cracking (SCC) resistance.Ē
    But I think your answer is hiding in one of these:
    http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/cours...S/Chapter2.pdf
    http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/...FJ4/990443.pdf
    Try page 10-11 on that last one.
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    Wow thatís some good info there. Looks like from that they do heat treat for toughness but I donít think they harden them. Gonna be tough if not imposable to figure out just what they do, I doubt Rugerís engineer will disclose much detail of the process they use because itís likely a proprietary thing. They be willing to treat my parts with their process though, Ruger does do some outside work like that but I don't know how small of a lot they would take.

    But for what Iím thinking of doing I donít need the extreme strength they do for the 6 shot 454. They only have about .062Ē wall between chambers and .108 external wall. For what Iím thinking on Iíd have .116Ē between chambers, .090 external wall to contain about 20Kpsi less pressure. I could get by with 410 stainless because in their testing of 6 shot cylinders in 410 it held the 65Kpsi fine and only cracked the thin web between chambers with the proof loads but I like the extra margin the 465 would give.
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    Default How about CS?

    Instead of going to all the issues with stainless steel - why not use of one of the many high strength carbon alloys steels and there is lots of information avaiable on the heat treating of them.

    Of course, the gun makers love stainless steel because they don't have to blue or finish the final product.



    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Wow thatís some good info there. Looks like from that they do heat treat for toughness but I donít think they harden them. Gonna be tough if not imposable to figure out just what they do, I doubt Rugerís engineer will disclose much detail of the process they use because itís likely a proprietary thing. They be willing to treat my parts with their process though, Ruger does do some outside work like that but I don't know how small of a lot they would take.

    But for what Iím thinking of doing I donít need the extreme strength they do for the 6 shot 454. They only have about .062Ē wall between chambers and .108 external wall. For what Iím thinking on Iíd have .116Ē between chambers, .090 external wall to contain about 20Kpsi less pressure. I could get by with 410 stainless because in their testing of 6 shot cylinders in 410 it held the 65Kpsi fine and only cracked the thin web between chambers with the proof loads but I like the extra margin the 465 would give.
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    There was some pretty detailed info in there on process. They stated they heated to 950-1050 degrees for I think it was 4 hours and then quenched in water or oil for the aging process.

    Regardless, rather than approaching Ruger, I would approach Carpenter with your questions. They seem eager to disclose every nuance regarding their alloys.
    Science has a rich history of proving itself wrong.

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    From the Purdue pdf @ http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/cours...S/Chapter2.pdf :
    Heat Treatment óAmong the corrosion-resistant alloys of its type, Custom 465 stainless provides
    the highest minimum combinations of strength and toughness in the H950 and H1000 conditions. Usually,
    parts are aged directly from the mill-supplied, solution-annealed condition. However, if material has been
    hot worked or welded, components should be reannealed (1800EF/982EC) and subzero cooled (-100EF/-
    73EC, 8-hour hold) prior to age hardening. Components should be cooled rapidly from the annealing
    temperature. Section sizes up to 12" (305 mm) can be cooled in a suitable liquid quench medium. The
    subsequent subzero treatment should be applied within 24-hours of solution annealing. The refrigeration
    treatment after annealing is important for achieving optimum aging response by eliminating small amounts
    of retained austenite from the microstructure. The mill-supplied solution anneal includes the subzero
    treatment.
    Aging treatments are performed by heating components to the specified temperature, holding for four
    hours, followed by cooling in air, oil or other suitable liquid quench medium. The 4-hour aging cycle is
    important developing optimum toughness and ductility at the specified strength levels. Increased cooling rates
    from the aging temperature tend to improve toughness and ductility and may be beneficial for 3" (76mm)
    section sizes and greater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Instead of going to all the issues with stainless steel - why not use of one of the many high strength carbon alloys steels and there is lots of information avaiable on the heat treating of them.

    Of course, the gun makers love stainless steel because they don't have to blue or finish the final product.
    Well . . . only because stainless sells frankly. People today seem to just want stainless, they have all kinds of notions about its coronation and durability (without even understanding there are many kinds of stainless) so stainless has become the preferred steel even if they paint it black. Good ole 4140 CM would do a fine job for cheap and be almost as corrosion restating and Iíd be happy if it was only for myself.


    What I never hear in the gun industry but is a big deal in aerospace is if you want stainless steel to acutely act like stainless steel it must be put through passivation after the part is all done. Iíve not found where any gun makers bother, just bead blast or polish and send it on out but most SS will rust as bad as CM without passivation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    There was some pretty detailed info in there on process. They stated they heated to 950-1050 degrees for I think it was 4 hours and then quenched in water or oil for the aging process.

    Regardless, rather than approaching Ruger, I would approach Carpenter with your questions. They seem eager to disclose every nuance regarding their alloys.
    Yea I read that but I think they are describing the process for fully hardening it, like for use in a cutting tool or something. I donít think that is what Ruger is doing, I think they are only slightly hardening it to a more springy elastic state. I do have an information request with Carpenter and expect they will droned me with info thatís over my head any time now. Iíll need to send them out to somebody for heat treat an way so if Ruger will take small lots . . .
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    I believe the only part they currently make from 465 is the srh 454 cylinder, so likely they only have a couple batches per year to heat treat that alloy, which they might even send out.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Default Heat treating

    I suspect that along with extensive heat treating would come a greater tendency to distort or warp. The cylinder is relatively short but the chambers vary considerably in wall thickness so perhaps they could get slightly out of round? Of course if the final hardness is still pretty soft they do a bit of final reaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yea I read that but I think they are describing the process for fully hardening it, like for use in a cutting tool or something. I donít think that is what Ruger is doing, I think they are only slightly hardening it to a more springy elastic state. I do have an information request with Carpenter and expect they will droned me with info thatís over my head any time now. Iíll need to send them out to somebody for heat treat an way so if Ruger will take small lots . . .
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I believe the only part they currently make from 465 is the srh 454 cylinder, so likely they only have a couple batches per year to heat treat that alloy, which they might even send out.
    Could be, I doubt they send it out though as Pine Tree (Rugerís materials division) does a lot of aerospace prototyping small run stuff. But my deal here for this first go-round would be just 10 maybe 20 cylinders. Thatís tiny and I donít know if they will mess with tiny from some guy in Alaska but I do plan to find out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I suspect that along with extensive heat treating would come a greater tendency to distort or warp. The cylinder is relatively short but the chambers vary considerably in wall thickness so perhaps they could get slightly out of round? Of course if the final hardness is still pretty soft they do a bit of final reaming.
    I donít know how Ruger does it but I would machine them to finish OD, +.005Ē on the end faces, -.003Ē center hole, and rough maybe .312Ē chamber holes then treat. Then I have a batch of cylinder ďblanksĒ reedy to fit to a gun with a lot of caliber choice left in them that can be opened up with a cobalt end mill.
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    I suspect that the powdered metalurgy "super" alloys such as Carpenter 465 are much more stable and less likely to warp due to their fine grain structure. It's nothing like your bar stock of old that is rolled and pounded into shape and thus has significant built in stresses.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Iím sure they are more stable just as a product of their density if nothing else. Wouldnít matter on a cylinder though, itís small but more important is itís symmetrical without thick and thin and would heat and cool very evenly.
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