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Thread: One good soapbox deserves another...

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Default One good soapbox deserves another...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    Well if there is an area that needs some bears thinned out that is one. In the Fall the black bears are thick in there. But its like the hillside moose hunt, there are so many people that you shoot something you need to kill it cause of all the traffic in the area. At least he notified people of the wounded bear.

    I gotta say though, I get sick of guys writing on here about how small of a gun you can get away with for hunting brownies. Either in the Chugach or in Kodiak tracking wounded bears is risky business and you gotta maximize your chances of a clean kill. Thats my soapbox..
    And perhaps one of the last things to be concerned with when maximizing your chances of making a clean kill, is nuances of caliber. I have to say, I get sick of guys writing on here implying that you can get away with less than desirable shot placement, or other sloppiness, if only you were using a larger boom stick. That's a crock. And that's my soapbox...
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Bad placement often leads to more bullets, arrows, spears, rocks, ect. flying, and rightly so, untill a vital organ is destroyed and the job done.

    Bad placement often leads to the traking of Wounded animals and further bad placement can lead to disaster in the case of a Bear.....

    Its always best when placeing the weapon into a Vital organ is done right the first time around, no matter the weapon.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    The problem with large calibers for large bears is that some hunters shoot them poorly. The get beat to snot at the range and unintentionally develop a flinch - or they don't spend much time at the range because the ammo is so expensive and/or they're getting sick of the recoil - and thus they become more likely to make a poor shot. I'd always prefer to go into the woods with someone who shoots a smaller caliber well as opposed to someone who is carrying a larger caliber but has questionable shooting skills.

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    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    The problem with large calibers for large bears is that some hunters shoot them poorly. - or they don't spend much time at the range ....'d always prefer to go into the woods with someone who shoots a smaller caliber well as opposed to someone who is carrying a larger caliber but has questionable shooting skills.
    Well said. It's certainly not an across the board observation but I've met very few folks who shot the big stuff really well or even much at all. I've now purchased two Ruger Alaskans that had less than 40 rounds through the tube and both parties seemed happy to see them go.

    As much as I like the .375s, when it's time to hunt, I usually take the .300....simply because I shoot it so much better.
    "I do not deal in hypotheticals. The world, as it is, is vexing enough..." Col. Stonehill, True Grit

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    Member tbone131's Avatar
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    Brian I totally agree. Too many guys want the biggest caliber they can get their hands on but how many of those guys can actually shoot it well? They also think that with a bigger caliber they can shoot through brush or maybe take marginal shots that others with a smaller caliber might not take. It all boils down to shot placement and good bullets. Use good bullets and make a good shot in the vitals on the first shot and the rest will take care of itself. End of story.

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    I totally agree with the smaller caliber and placing the bullet where you intend for it to go. I knew coming to AK, that I wanted a little bigger gun, but not too much as I wanted to be able to shoot it, and shoot it often to stay in practice. The .300 WM fits the bill for me, and the ammo is cheap enough that I can afford to shoot it more than I could say a .338 or a .375. That being said, I will never forget the time I ordered a 7mm-08 TC Encore in Montana. The outfitter/gun shop owner tried talking me into .375 H&H as I was a big guy and could handle it. I ignored him and went ahead with the 7mm-08. I shot a a few mule deer and whitetails with it and never needed more than one shot. That is the one rifle I regret parting with.

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    It, you are just plain wrong. you can have decent shot placement but use an inadequate caliber or bullet and have all kinds of problems. I could go on and on but briefly, did you ever see a brown bear guide hunt with a .223? Obviously not and for good reason. You need to maximize chance of a clean kill and a large wound channel and well constructed bullet will do that. The margin of error when hunting brown bears is much smaller than for other game also. You wonder why nine foots bear took 14 shots? Partly due to good practice of shooting to stop but also cause they are tough proper shot placement or not. It's irresponsible to the game to hunt them with inadequate calibers, especially along the bike paths in populated areas which was my question.
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Nobody is suggesting that using a .223 is appropriate, but there are plenty of cartridges that are appropriate that aren't followed with the words magnum or H&H. As for ninefoot's story, re-read it - he wrote that the bear was not hit in the vitals on that first shot. To me that underscores the importance of shot placement, not caliber. No bear will survive a 30-06 put through its lungs, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    But its like the hillside moose hunt, there are so many people that you shoot something you need to kill it cause of all the traffic in the area.
    Since when does it matter if there are "so many people" or lots of "traffic" in an area that you "need" to kill it? As far as I'm concerned, if you shoot an animal ANYWHERE you need to kill it.......period.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    It's irresponsible to the game to hunt them with inadequate calibers, especially along the bike paths in populated areas which was my question.
    What about bow hunters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    The problem with large calibers for large bears is that some hunters shoot them poorly. The get beat to snot at the range and unintentionally develop a flinch - or they don't spend much time at the range because the ammo is so expensive and/or they're getting sick of the recoil - and thus they become more likely to make a poor shot. I'd always prefer to go into the woods with someone who shoots a smaller caliber well as opposed to someone who is carrying a larger caliber but has questionable shooting skills.
    Having owned a 416 before , it's true that they will make you flinch and get shaky after many shots at the range. However, my first shot accuracy is exactly the same as with my .300 Winchester Magnum. It's comparable right through my 5th shot to my 30 caliber magnum. After that, heck yes, a safari magnum degrades your accuracy much more than another rifle. But that first shot has about the same accuracy as any other rifle. Just my thoughts.

    While follow-up shots are important, the most important shot is the first one. This emphasizes 'hunting skills' even more than 'shooting skills'. The placement of the first shot is probably the most important factor in making a reliable, clean kill and nothing aids that more than the ability to get closer to the target. (maybe a good shooting set-up) Also, I'd rather have a partner for the 'follow up' shot than myself. That's probably the most helpful thing a hunter could choose to have to guarantee a good kill, recovery and experience: a solid partner.

    I agree that one shouldn't throw stones at the caliber used, especially when it isn't even known. 123 yards seems a perfectly reasonable distance to engage a brown bear sized target. The only thing I would 'throw stones' at is if the poster from the other thread was hunting alone. But you still cant fault a man for that. You cant determine what factor it was that let the bear get away. Not from my couch anyway.
    Born in Alaska: The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance. Psalm 16:6

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    I dont mind carrying a couple extra pounds of rifle toteing my M-39, as the accuracy trumps the extra weight, and makes it worth carrying, compared to most sporting rifles. The extra weight, I find , nullifys recoil and makes for a steady rifle to hold with the balance tward the front hand, and thats makes for a solid holding rifle.
    As well, I find the recoil dampening effect of those couple pounds makes it a 'shoot all day" type rifle, and the practise piles up.

    as for a 416 and such, if theres a Bear in your sights, most guys shoot just fine at that moment, although ,of course, some dont. Seems , to me anyways, that when I pull the trigger on an animal, I barely hear the shot go off or feel the recoil, Im pretty much tuned into the animal, the sights and the sound of a hit a fraction after the shot. Dosent matter the caliber or the gauge, its just that way for me.

    A clean and quick Death is every hunters goal, or should be.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    No bear will survive a 30-06 put through its lungs, period.
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    Yet who wants to roam into the dark timber after your yet functioning and hard breathing lung shot bear that invaribly roamed out at last light when it was raining? Bears don't bleed much and a high lung shot bear will bleed mainly into it's chest cavity or develop huge "blood shot" hematoma on entrance and exit, if your lucky enough to have an exit.

    I've killed bears with a 25-06. My weapon of choice now is a .416 Ruger sending 350g TTSX at 2200fps.

    You want to destroy a bear in many situations. If you don't have a powerful firearm just know your limitations, get in close, shoot for the heart and lungs. Be prepared for quick follow ups. Those video kill sequences of bears getting pounded by three and four shots are the real deal.

    Count me in the bigger is better camp please and forgive my 25-06 preaching. It's been functional but please understand I don't consider it optimal for big Brown Bear hunting.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    The older I get the more controllable my rifle needs to be. My mind may not notice the shot on game but my eye sight,body and muscle memory do which I assume would mean slower follow up if needed.I kinda wish I had stayed with the ought6 my whole life for hunting but the old 45/70 has been a great trip and every thing mag long gone.
    The hunter did a good job as far as I can tell with all his actions and I would hunt with him at least once.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Yeah, MT I wonder about the bowhunting thing also. Bows arent as quick kills usually. I have shot two moose with a bow so far and one traveled 400 yards after a lung shot and the other didnt run but took quite a while to die. If those were bears they could have dont some damage to people in the meantime. If it was on hillside they could have run through peoples lawn and they would have raised a stink. I think the reason most populated areas are bow hunting is cause of risk of the bullet and noise cause they sure dont seem to kill as quickly. When I was in Seward we had an episode where a guy shot a black bear with a bow in town and it ran through town afterward. Everybody was in an uproar and I think they prohibited hunting after that and the guy was charged with something. Hunting near people can go bad really quickly.
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

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    Can't add much to this, but repeat some of whats been said.

    In my experience with bears, and in my mind, the most important shot on any big game and especially bears, is the first shot, make it a 'killing shot', and with any variety of adequate caliber bullet placed properly it does the job. If your making off hand 'snap shots' your risk of a clean kill diminishes. If you have 'flinching' on your mind at any time because of a large caliber, the 'flinching' will likely follow you into the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollybug View Post
    Yeah, MT I wonder about the bowhunting thing also. Bows arent as quick kills usually. I have shot two moose with a bow so far and one traveled 400 yards after a lung shot and the other didnt run but took quite a while to die. If those were bears they could have dont some damage to people in the meantime. If it was on hillside they could have run through peoples lawn and they would have raised a stink. I think the reason most populated areas are bow hunting is cause of risk of the bullet and noise cause they sure dont seem to kill as quickly. When I was in Seward we had an episode where a guy shot a black bear with a bow in town and it ran through town afterward. Everybody was in an uproar and I think they prohibited hunting after that and the guy was charged with something. Hunting near people can go bad really quickly.

    Are those the only two bow kills you've seen? So far, I have only seen one bow kill go poorly, and that was a bad shot on my part. Last spring I saw a 7ft black bear die within 50 feet of where it was shot, and in August I had a caribou run less than 20 ft. I've seen moose, bear, and goats killed with a bow. Except for one bad shot, they've all died as fast or faster than if they had been shot with a gun.

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    Member northernalberta's Avatar
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    Since somebody mentioned the 25-06, I am interested in knowing what range of game you guys think this calibre is capable of taking. I'm really interested in buying one ever since I found out they're a necked down 30.06. Somebody on another thread said their daughter took a moose with a .243, so I suppose a 25-06 could do the same thing?

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    I saw a video where, at the time, the #5 brownie was killed with an arrow. Other than a head shot, to this day it is still the cleanest, most quiet bear kills I have ever seen. When hit, the bear just acted like a bee stung him or something, then he swam across a small creek, climbed up the bank, walked a few feet, wobbled and fell over. Not a growl, not a moan, not a sprint. I doubt he moved 50-75 yards from where the arrow hit him.
    Sheep hunting...... the pain goes away, but the stupidity remains...!!!

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