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Thread: Wrong primer?!

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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Exclamation Wrong primer?!

    I loaded up a bunch of test loads (9) for my 338 Win Mag Tikka T3 Lite the other day, and they all fired fine with no signs of over pressure. All 9 shots went into a 1.5" group. (three different powders, loaded in one grain increments) But when I went back to load up some more similar loads I discovered that I had used Federal 210M instead of the Barnes recommended Fed 215M. Being new to reloading I don't know what to do at this point. If I load up some more of these loads using the "wrong" primer and they chrony and group well, I can't see a reason not to hunt with them.

    What should I do? Go back to the 210M or go with the 215M and re-pressure test?

    Thanks in advance,

    Brook
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  2. #2

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    The number 1 issue you are going to have with non-magnum primers in a load where mags are called for is incomplete ignition. You'll know right away. It'll go off with all the flash of a 22. I'd look to make sure the bullet left the barrel. In general if you can set it off consistantly with a standard primer you'll have lower standard deviation going across the chrony. If it's not lighting properly you'll definitely see it on the chrony and your accuracy probably won't be exciting. I wouldn't suggest switching primers with slow for caliber powders. Never switch up to a magnum when your load data lists a standard. Go find data developed with a mag cap.

    I try to use standard primers where ever I can. It is never recommended to switch components from that listed in the load data. If you obtained good performance out of them I don't see much of an issue. Your pressure will be lower than the listed load. You can still work up loads as normal, just look out for signs of incomplete ignition. Even though you are working at lower pressures it would be advisable to still observe the max listed until you know more about what you are doing.

    If you want to switch to the magnum cap reduce loads to starting and work your way up again.

    Quick warning, just because it lights during the summer with a standard primer doesn't mean it will in the cold of winter.

  3. #3
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    The FED-210 primer will likely give less pressure/velocity with a given load. Since your only out nine bullets the thing to do is load the same loads as before and use the 215 primers. The difference will be small and since you're just test firing no biggy.. If you chronograph five shots it will tell you that with 72.0 grains of RL-19 the 210's will give about 30 fps less velocity than the 215 primers. Accuracy will likely be better with the 215 primers depending on which powder you are using. I've shot every load with both standard and magnum primers to look for differences. No a big deal.

    Hey I just loaded up 100 357 magnum rounds with Remington No. 7 1/2 small rifle primer....What do you think that will do? Should I shoot 'em?
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  4. #4

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    Hey I just loaded up 100 357 magnum rounds with Remington No. 7 1/2 small rifle primer....What do you think that will do? Should I shoot 'em?[/quote]

    As I'm sure you know; Rifle primers are harder than pistol primers and require a harder hammer strike. If the primers were for a rifle or semi-auto rifle the pistol you might not have a heavy enough hammer fall to acheive positive detonation. Rifle primers are longer than pistol primers, the primer might extend too far out of the pocket and would lock the cylinder against the frame ( this might only occur after the round is fired). This is for revolvers only...! A semi auto pistol might slam fire, when the slide rams the round home. It's too late now but you can modify the primer pockets making them deep enough for rifle primers, if you are shooting them in a rifle.
    Single shot rifles can use ammo loaded with rifle primers and some loads are listed with them, just don't mix them up with your pistol ammo.
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  5. #5

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    I seem to recall small rifle primers are also hotter. Might be an issue depending on how hot you loaded them. I've had problems getting rifle caps to ignite in handguns that weren't designed for them.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    With accuracy like that, I'd stick with the 210M! I've used the fed 210 with up to 72 gr's of powder and get consistant ignition and great accuracy. For the cases burning 80 or more grains, I use the fed 215. I know many people that use the Fed 210 for the 338 and 375 magnums with great results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    Hey I just loaded up 100 357 magnum rounds with Remington No. 7 1/2 small rifle primer....What do you think that will do? Should I shoot 'em?
    As I'm sure you know; Rifle primers are harder than pistol primers and require a harder hammer strike. If the primers were for a rifle or semi-auto rifle the pistol you might not have a heavy enough hammer fall to acheive positive detonation. Rifle primers are longer than pistol primers, the primer might extend too far out of the pocket and would lock the cylinder against the frame ( this might only occur after the round is fired). This is for revolvers only...! A semi auto pistol might slam fire, when the slide rams the round home. It's too late now but you can modify the primer pockets making them deep enough for rifle primers, if you are shooting them in a rifle.
    Single shot rifles can use ammo loaded with rifle primers and some loads are listed with them, just don't mix them up with your pistol ammo.[/QUOTE]

    Well, they did fit the pocket quite well. Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same physical size, diameter and length (depth), but I have read that cup thickness varies but can't confirm that. I think it's true as this 7 1/2 primer is well suited for the 454 Casull with it's very high pressure. This is actually a test of sorts to check for variations in velocity with different primers. Also an attempt to get a hotter spark even with faster burning powder to improve the performance of magnum loads in short barrels (2 1/2"). Hopefully the model 19 will handle it. I'll test in the model 28 first.

    It is very difficult to get loads with small velocity spreads from short barreled magnum revolvers. Especially with slower burning powders. My Cor-Bon 140 grain loads varied from 1095 fps to 1220 fps from this little M19 (2 1/2") I'm sure I can improve on not only the velocity but the uniformity of this load.
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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Hey Murph, we should try shooting those rifle primered 357s out of my little Rossi 92 Levergun. That little trapper carbine actually obtains some fairly impressive velocities.
    Last edited by Float Pilot; 04-11-2007 at 11:40. Reason: dang computer can't spell
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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I use rifle primers in my 357 blackhawk. The hammer strike is so hard that pistol primers are pierced due to the soft cup.

  10. #10
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 338 Win Primer

    with such a large powder charge I suggest either the Fed 215 Match or WLRM primer.
    Alaska

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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    While waiting for replies here, I did some google searching and came upon this... http://www.accuratereloading.com/primer.html Pretty interesting read, don't know if it means anything to my situation or not.

    Comments?
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    Member bgreen's Avatar
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    Beer:30, you mention small rifle primers being hotter, the 210 is a large rifle primer isn't it?

    I am a very careful and detail oriented person, and extremely safety conscious, but somehow I messed up this one. I didn't intend to use the "wrong" primer, and even though the 210's shot fine, and appear safe, I don't think at this stage in my reloading game I will intentionally deviate from loads listed in my reloading manuals. At least not without consulting a knowledgeable and experienced reloader that I know and trust. However, I am a curious fellow, and am interested in comparing the two primers.
    The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

  13. #13

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    That comment was addressing murphy's use of small rifle primers in 357. Pretty good idea for what he is trying to accomplish.

    The 7 1/2s won't fit in your 338 pockets.

    338 is borderline for switching to standard primers. With the load you have it appears to work well. If you want to use that as a hunting load I don't see any problem with it. If you want the most consistant spark, match primers are the way to go. I'm not sure you'll see the difference in your average hunting rifle though. In theory standard primers let you use a larger maximum powder charge. Whether or not you standard cap will ignite the larger charge is the question. For lower charge weights the magnum cap can be overkill and actually increase your standard deviation. In smaller cases, magnum primers can cause dangerous pressures.

    In the end, it's all about what works for you. You may want to try working up the load you have now with magnum primers. You may get even better performance. It may fall off. Some rifles have a great deal of personality and will sing for you if you get to know them. Different manufactures primers may work better for a specific bullet/powder combo. In 338 I wouldn't be affraid to try standard primers. With primer testing you'll get the most useful data using a chronograph. The differences will most likely be subtle.

    Good luck.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I use rifle primers in my 357 blackhawk. The hammer strike is so hard that pistol primers are pierced due to the soft cup.


    Yeah, that's what this is about. My Corbon loads were getting the primers pierced by both the M-19 with it's very light hammer fall and the M-28 with it's heavier hammer. My guess is they are Federal primers. I also had such high spread in velocity for that factory load I thought I could improve on that. Today's session didn't help I used Vihta 3N37 powder and it was bad in both guns. I am going to try Vihta 105 since I have some. I can't tell any difference in velocity or sd in loads with #7 1/2 primers or CCI-550 in the 357. My velocity spread is with the powder choice I think. I was looking for a clean easy to dispense powder for the 357. Oh well, back to the drawing board...or the loading bench.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    Hey Murph, we should try shooting those rifle primered 357s out of my little Rossi 92 Levergun. That little trapper carbine actually obtains some fairly impressive velocities.
    Yep, good idea. Actually when I load for the lever guns I use rifle primers in the 38/357 because of the heavier hammer fall. I don't like holes in the back side of the primer cup.

    One thing I've found with the lever guns is a maximum load is LESS than in a revolver. The longer barrel gives more time for the powder to burn, raising the peak a little. This for 357 or 44 mag. I reduce the slow powder loads by two grains and still get very high velocity and easier extraction.

    Yeah, I guess the velocity from that 16" barrel at about 1650 with 158 grainers. Do you shoot cast in that?
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  16. #16
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 338 Win

    Due to the large powder charge the Fed 215 Match primer or Winchester WLRM is the primer I suggest for the 338 Win.........

    I use Fed 215 Match and Reloader 19 and IMR 4350 in my 338 Win.

    In the 357 mag.....I use H110 and CCI 550.
    Alaska

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    Thumbs down

    My post here about the wrong primers for my 357 was in regard to using Remington No. 7 1/2 small rifle primers in the 357 revolver, (which normally takes small pistol/small pistol magnum primers).

    This was part of a test to determine if my guns were bad or if the primers on the Corbon factory ammo had soft primer cups. My M28 and M19 357's pierced the primers of the corbon loads, 2 out every 6. I loaded various loads with CCI-550 (small pistol magnum) primers and with the 7 1/2 sr primers. None of these were pierced but with the 7 1/2 load with some Vihta Vouri 3n37 powder, ignition was erratic and velocities suffered wide variations. These primers were better with slower burning powder (N105) and heavy bullets but the best loads were with the CCI-550 primers. Some of those results were posted on the "357..leave it at home?" post. I think the Corbon loads were using Federal small pistol magnum primers.

    I do my testing, when there is a degree of uncertainty in it, with very strong and proven revolvers, just to stay on the sensible side. Adventure is good but a broken gun can spoil the fun.
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