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Thread: Great Northern Guns VS the BATF

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    Default Great Northern Guns VS the BATF

    Breaking information sent to this reporter moments ago via email from a contact in Anchorage, Alaska indicates that a local gun store has refused to comply with an order from the ATF to turn over to the agency the official 'Bound Book' that firearms retailers are required to keep on site on customers and their purchases, photo I.D.s, and background checks.

    The store's refusal has provoked a confrontation with the ATF, which claims that the Bound Book is 'their property.'

    An initial report was published here yesterday concerning this new illegal activity on the part of the ATF.

    According to a memo from the Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force, the Great Northern Guns store in Anchorage was asked to give their Bound Book to the ATF so it could be copied in its totality. The store refused, citing their legal rights and the fact that to do so would be a violation of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.



    The Task Force began to make inquiries about the ATF's request and was told by a local agency official that the Bound Book is the property of the ATF and can be picked up anytime they choose.

    But the law appears to say something entirely different.

    While it is true that the ATF can gain access to the book, there are specific stipulations concerning the circumstances that would warrant such a request. The law prevents any government agency, including ATF, from taking possession of the entire record of purchases. The agency can, however, gain access to certain specific records under the following three stipulations--there is an ongoing criminal investigation of a customer, there is an annual on site inspection of the store's records, or there is a need to trace a specific firearm in the midst of an ongoing investigation.


    Inspection and Acquisition of Licensee Records



    The Gun Control Act required licensees to maintain records of firearm acquisitions, dispositions, and inventories. Furthermore, it permitted warrantless inspection of these "at all reasonable times," and broadly authorized the Secretary to require submission of reports on the records' content.



    FOPA establishes significant restrictions on the two latter powers. In general, administrative inspections of licensee records now require a magistrate's warrant, based on a showing of reasonable cause to believe evidence of a violation may be found.



    Three exceptions, however, nearly swallow this rule. Neither warrant nor reasonable cause is needed for (1) a reasonable inquiry in the course of a criminal investigation of a person other than the licensee; (2) an annual inspection for ensuring compliance with record keeping requirements; or (3) tracing a firearm in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. While these sizably reduce application of the warrant and cause requirement, it remains effective for its primary purpose in any event: to prevent inspections undertaken without immediate law enforcement need, or abused for the purpose of harassment.



    FOPA also institutes some measures designed to minimize the harassment potential of an otherwise authorized inspection or search. Only records material to a violation of law may be seized and even as to these, copies must be furnished the licensee within a reasonable time. The unusual appearance of the last protection vanishes upon reflection; because a licensee is legally bound to buy and sell only upon recordation, removal of his records is more than an inconvenience.

    The power of the Secretary to acquire licensee records is likewise limited by FOPA.

    Requirements to (1) submit records upon going out of business, (2) submit a report upon sale of more than one handgun to the same person during the same week and (3) submit reports of sales when ordered to do so by the Secretary, are enacted into law.



    Conversely, the Secretary is forbidden to require submission of reports "except as expressly required by this section." Paralleling this prohibition is the proviso that no future regulation may require that any records required by the Act "be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any state or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."



    The problem with the ATF's request is that it has not specified any of these stipulations justifying its demand for the entire Bound Book.



    This led the Second Amendment Task Force to question the agency's motives, even to the point of suspecting that the action is some sort of de facto registration scheme being conducted by the Obama Administration. An agent who was contacted by the Task Force would not provide any information on the request other than to say the directive came 'from on high.'



    The Task Force interpreted that to mean the Seattle Field Division. The Task Force has also initiated inquiries into firearms dealers in other states to ascertain if the ATF directive is broad based or confined to Alaska.


    Continue reading on Examiner.com Breaking: confrontation between Alaska gun store and ATF - National Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/conservative...#ixzz1rPAkld8E
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    Member sniper3083006's Avatar
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    Way to go GNG stick to your guns.

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    Default Time to make some phone calls Monday morning!

    We need to time up the phones Monday morning to Lisa, Mark, and Don and let them find out what is going on here! Wish we still had Ted Stevens to lead the charge; I guess we'll see what Mark does for us and what his true colors really are.

    It will also be interesting to see what our liberal daily rag does with this story; I don't think we will be surprised.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    They get them when you go out of business and thats it.Also why I don't like the idea and use of bound books in the computer as its easy to get the info.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    The waffen BATFEces thugs engaged in d-baggery again? No way.
    Now what ?

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    That link isn't working
    "...arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe...Horrid mischief would ensue were the good deprived of the use of them." -Thomas Paine

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    I heard about this last week at work. Apparently some shops are rolling over immediately. Others like GNG and AK Custom (that I know of) are fighting against this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan J View Post
    I heard about this last week at work. Apparently some shops are rolling over immediately. Others like GNG and AK Custom (that I know of) are fighting against this.
    So just how wide spread is this? I know there are forum members in other states is anyone else aware of this happening? What is the NRA doing?

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    I know for sure of three shops in Anchorage. Maybe The Kid will chime in from WWG he could probably offer industry insight. Not sure on other states, haven't heard anything.

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    Sounds like it's "go time!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRDATR View Post
    So just how wide spread is this? I know there are forum members in other states is anyone else aware of this happening? What is the NRA doing?
    Do they even know about it? What about GOA?
    "...arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe...Horrid mischief would ensue were the good deprived of the use of them." -Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan J View Post
    I know for sure of three shops in Anchorage. Maybe The Kid will chime in from WWG he could probably offer industry insight. Not sure on other states, haven't heard anything.

    We have an excellent relationship with the guys at BATFE (the local guys at least) and they havent been by ask to copy our books (which are computerized).

    I'm sure they realize that such a request to us would be futile.

    Im not totally familiar with whats going on as everything I get is second hand. Don Young stopped by the other day to pick up a rifle and hang out a bit as he always does when he comes to town and I chatted with him for a while. He is aware of the situation and as insurance, I have his aide's cell phone number plugged in to my phone.

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    Thanks for the chime in Kin. I’m wondering if this isn’t just rumor mill hogwash as all we have after almost a week is second/third/forth hand info. Glad to hear Don Young is aware of it whatever it is.
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    My boss got it directly from two shops this past weekend. I THINK, as in don't quote me, they were Alaska Custom and Gun Traders. I know he said one of them resisted but ended up giving the information up with the customer's data redacted. The other didn't want a fight and just gave them what they wanted. I DON'T KNOW WHICH SHOP DID WHAT.
    The GNG piece that started this thread was the third time I'd heard of this in a 24hr period.
    I don't know, seems like too much to be rumor. I could be wrong though. If it is true it feels real creepy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan J View Post
    My boss got it directly from two shops this past weekend. I THINK, as in don't quote me, they were Alaska Custom and Gun Traders. I know he said one of them resisted but ended up giving the information up with the customer's data redacted. The other didn't want a fight and just gave them what they wanted. I DON'T KNOW WHICH SHOP DID WHAT.
    The GNG piece that started this thread was the third time I'd heard of this in a 24hr period.
    I don't know, seems like too much to be rumor. I could be wrong though. If it is true it feels real creepy.
    Oh yea, creepy for sure which makes it all the more odd that nobody but Kin has said anything about it. If feathers got ruffled all over town you’d think the canaries would be singing about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Wish we still had Ted Stevens to lead the charge;
    Yep, what a shame. Uncle Ted was assume. Now that he has passed the phony trumped up case against him has been tossed out due to corruption on the prosecutors side.

    If the case would never have been brought against him he would have been in session that day not on a plane ride in poor weather.

    Just saying...

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    I just had a ATF agent inspect my books this morning. First time I have seen an agent in over 20 years. All went very well, agent was very cooperative and said my books were in great shape.
    Now, a neighbor, who is also a gun dealer, said last night he was visited by a lady agent last month - like me it had been over 20 years. This guy is not the best record keeper and had some errors, one was pretty major having delivered a gun to a DU raffle winner that admitted to having a felony chg and the dealer missed seeing that box checked. So, agent left and I think he said another lady agent came back a few days later and said if he surrendered his books, "and license", it would all be OK... He said he didn't think so and she left - he does not know what if anything else will follow. In this case I believe he created his own mess of sorts but I was supprised agent asked him to give up his liscense?
    I did not feel the agent I worked with this AM had any hidden agenda's for sure and was very helpful.....
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Yep, what a shame. Uncle Ted was assume. Now that he has passed the phony trumped up case against him has been tossed out due to corruption on the prosecutors side.

    If the case would never have been brought against him he would have been in session that day not on a plane ride in poor weather.

    Just saying...
    The case against Stevens was electioneering in the most underhanded manner, and look what we ended up with as a result. I hope people do not forget the chicanery of that election regardless of how "NRA approved" a certain person might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    The case against Stevens was electioneering in the most underhanded manner, and look what we ended up with as a result. I hope people do not forget the chicanery of that election regardless of how "NRA approved" a certain person might be.
    I always wondered what John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzales, and George W Bush had against Stevens. Why did they want Begich in office?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    I just had a ATF agent inspect my books this morning. First time I have seen an agent in over 20 years. All went very well, agent was very cooperative and said my books were in great shape.
    Now, a neighbor, who is also a gun dealer, said last night he was visited by a lady agent last month - like me it had been over 20 years. This guy is not the best record keeper and had some errors, one was pretty major having delivered a gun to a DU raffle winner that admitted to having a felony chg and the dealer missed seeing that box checked. So, agent left and I think he said another lady agent came back a few days later and said if he surrendered his books, "and license", it would all be OK... He said he didn't think so and she left - he does not know what if anything else will follow. In this case I believe he created his own mess of sorts but I was supprised agent asked him to give up his liscense?
    I did not feel the agent I worked with this AM had any hidden agenda's for sure and was very helpful.....
    I hear the average for inspection of an FFL 01 is about every 15 years so at 20 you dun good Smokey.

    Asking for the license seems to be their standard deal for things like that, their slap on the wrist you were a bad boy punishment . . . their way of “re-educating“ the lazy book keepers. Surrender it then reapply and they will often give it back, make them fight you over it and I bet it won‘t be any fun at all. I have some experience with it, wasn’t my FFL but it turned my full time job to part time for 3 months anyway.

    In Arizona I was working for my brother in-law’s machine shop building Maadi Griffon 50bmgs for Bill Stewart when ATF served a warrant on us. Now we were all legal on what we were doing but Bill Stewart, who had a machinegun conviction out of UT we didn’t know about because we never sold him a gun, was playing big games with us. So we were all clear on the Maadi Griffon stuff, but in the investigation they turned up that Bill Stewart had bought 2 machineguns with copies of our shop’s FFL. We never saw these guns, Bill must have met the UPS guy at our front door and signed for them, it was he who signed wherever he did it. At any rate ATF took a very dim view of this and asked for the FFL 07/02 back please and thank you. Brother in-law agreed to voluntarily surrender it and later that week a new application packet that nobody had ordered came in the mail. He filled it out and they gave him a new FFL, same guys that served the warrant did the new interview even.

    Bill Stewart went to the poky where the lying cheat belongs. Yea I know the internet buzz is that he is some 2/A hero that was railroaded by the ATF, bullpucky! I was there right in the middle of it for his two-faced lying act when he tried to hang everyone around him for all the illegal stuff he knowingly did behind our backs. ATF was just doing what they do in a more fair manor than I ever thought they would but the story took on a jack boot thug tone just the same . . . which is why I question if this GNG thing is real or just more imagined internet hooey.
    Andy
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