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Thread: Project "Dropped Alaska"?

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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default Project "Dropped Alaska"?

    Just wondering if anyone watched the end of the show? THought that it was cool that he got his moose with the bow. Showed a prime example of how a land shot can turn wet in a hurry. I thought that I heard them say that they got half of the moose done and left the rest in the water till morning. I couldn't believe that they were going to do that. Then the after the show the ending clips showed the camera guys helping them drag it out of the water.

    Do I have this wrong?

    Got me to thinking and wondering if anyone here has ever left an animal in the water over night? What are the potential problems from doing something like that? How long could you leave meat in water before it would be unsalvageable? What steps have you taken to dry and care for your meat once completely immersed in river water?
    Semper Fi and God Bless

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    Member elksnout's Avatar
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    My understanding with meat (elk so far...moose next year) is that you keep it DRY, but cool? Maybe over night would not hurt, but you need to get it dried out as soon as possible?

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    Moderator stid2677's Avatar
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    My Buddy shot this Bull right at dark and of course he walked into the river to die. We tied him off to the boat and went to sleep, used a small come-along the next day to pull him onto shore.

    He was delicious!!!!!!!!!! The meat had a nice chill on it.





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    Member 4merguide's Avatar
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    The guy that markets that some kind of citric acid/pepper (whatever) "game keeper" stuff says that right after the kill you can leave some meat in water for only,I think, maybe an hour of so. Point is to cool it quickly, but yet leave enough warmth in the meat so that when you hang it, the warmth left will still be enough to be able to dry the meat and allow it to crust over. My father always taught to keep meat dry. And if by chance you didn't, you could wipe it down with a vinegar/water solution that will again, help the meat to crust over.

    I could definitely see how allowing the whole moose to rest in the water overnight "WITH SKIN ATTACHED" wouldn't hurt it at all. Even though the meat was in the water it was still dry....

    btw...love the looks of those steaks on the grill...!!!

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    Premium Member denalihunter's Avatar
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    Yep, as long as you leave the skin on you should be good. I've had to in the past as well.

    Oh yeah...seeing those steaks really got my stomach going... guess it's time to go have lunch!

    Claude
    Experience Real Alaska! www.alpinecreeklodge.com

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    Member TWB's Avatar
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    Wonder how many drop hunts were planned after folks saw this show.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

  7. #7

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    They were just mighty lucky that it didn't bring a grizzly into the meat. I have heard a lot of people using a moose hide as a drag on their float trips to bring in bears. I can tell you with all of their gear that that brought they should of finished the job.
    I wonder what dropped X project is going to be.

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    Member Silvertip-CO's Avatar
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    I quit watching after they went 27 miles on the river one day when they only wanted to go three miles. Then they sat around and whined and boohooed about it. ('***' came to mind). So much for reality hunt shows.
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    Member ninefoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tboehm View Post
    Just wondering if anyone watched the end of the show? THought that it was cool that he got his moose with the bow. Showed a prime example of how a land shot can turn wet in a hurry. I thought that I heard them say that they got half of the moose done and left the rest in the water till morning. I couldn't believe that they were going to do that. Then the after the show the ending clips showed the camera guys helping them drag it out of the water.

    Do I have this wrong?

    Got me to thinking and wondering if anyone here has ever left an animal in the water over night? What are the potential problems from doing something like that? How long could you leave meat in water before it would be unsalvageable? What steps have you taken to dry and care for your meat once completely immersed in river water?
    i wouldnt even think about it. i'm sure it was fine and salvageable...but it woulda bugged me senseless to think about that bull in the water all night. big animals have a tendency to bone sour, and i personally would be wondering the whole time if the river was cooling the meat next to the bone in the ham enough to prevent that...as stid states i guess its doable, but not with a camp i'm in...we'd be working on getting that bull outa the drink. i've been there...it sux. but its doable especially with a few guys. we worked well into the night and everything worked out just fine. leaving it would have been grounds to get fired for me and the guide (i was a packer at the time) and the guy i was working for wouldnt have even presented it as an option.

    lol didnt see the show, but it appears they enjoyed a bit of a rodeo...as any alaskan drop hunt can be. perfect...i'm glad they documented that.

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    Keep him belly up and youll be fine.

    I bring home Caribou without gutting them, put them under a tarp for the night, belly up. Get up the next day then skin, gut and butcher. Some very soft meat indeed, and PERFECT for freezing and eating frozen, with Seal oil and friends over, maybe break out some frozen Whitefish with eggs and some apple slices to go with it all ......Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!

    Especcially in Winter, guys will do this, because when you skin and gut, the rigurmortis will freeeze in, and when you thaw th emeat later, its still in need of time to relax the meats grain. If we leave the animal in its skin and ungutted for a few hours (a night) and skin /gut the next day, the steaks are awsome and nobodys spending the evening chewing.

    I imagine Stid has his belly up in the drink. If possible, keep the rear legs spred, as heat will green th emeat in the crotch area first.I use a stick


    I wouldnt look forward to the mud involved, nor sand near my meat.I would, if possible, take it to some thick firm grass along the waters egde or to a rock shore and place willows down for the butchering and roll the animal up, winch, whatever, and try to keep it dry. "BUT" was off any sand or such, just dry it soon, hang it up in a light breeze and your good to go.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    I didn't see the show (I don't do TV) but tboehm said "half-salvaged" and both stid and stranger said "left him whole".

    I see this as a huge difference. I avoid getting any water of any type, on any edible meat, which of course does not include fur/skin/antlers, and the place where the bullet entered it.

    I would never stop to go eat dinner or go to bed with an animal half processed and in water.

    Stid, one concern I wonder if you had, is that if you had proceeded, it might draw a grizzly in the night while you're working on it? And, like I said, yours was whole. I could do that for a few hours. But half (like the TV show said)? No.

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    No TV here, either Familyman. Ive never seen the show, but Ive seen Moose in water and helped solve such things a couple times.
    1/2 a Moose in the water is total trouble. A whole one over night isnt. A whole one on the ground over night is big trouble too.

    In the cooling water , no light and cold, wet, fumbling hands with a knife in the cold wet dark is not a risk I will take.

    I will move camp to the Moose, and butcher on ground all night , but a lakeside night and early start whith a fire right there would be the trick for a whole moose in the drink after the night.
    Start to finnish, no overnight breaks ~~LOL!!~~ Piss around the camp, no Bears.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Member oldmil007's Avatar
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    Friend of mine had this one go right into the river in the background right towards the end of legal shooting last year. Lassoed 'em (while getting good and wet ) and tied him off to the bank. It did bloat up a bit overnight but no effect on the meat. Late October so the water was plenty cold.


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    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    Last year we dropped a bull on the edge of a marsh (Sept 23rd). He ran about 50' and piled up in calf deep water right at dark.
    We rolled him on his back, gutted him and opened him up for the night. Before leaving I covered the carcass with a tarp and secured the outer edges to the ground with brush.
    Next morning he was iced down perfectly and the cavity was dry. Couldn't have worked out any better. As stated above, as long as the hide is on and the water is COLD, I think you'll be fine.
    He tastes awesome!
    My first moose I dropped in knee deep water and butchered all night. Decided then and there I would not do it again, (staying up all night to butcher and ideally never whack one near deep water).
    BK

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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    They said half in the show but they also show in the after show all 4 dragging it out of the water. I was wondering about this contradiction and if anyone else caught it. I could see leaving it whole like a couple stated but no way doing half IMHO.
    Semper Fi and God Bless

  16. #16

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    guys, a few things i've learned about hunting moose on rivers:

    1. Know and respect your physical limits, especially when handling a big animal at night or in water, with knives and poor lighting.
    2. Know your meat care and understand the complexities of how spoilage occurs.
    3. Do what you can in all cases to safeguard your health and meat, in that order.

    Physical limits: If it's dark and you find your moose in the water, decide how much you can do phsyically and admit your situation. Can you pulley drag it to shallow water and butcher the whole carcass within several hours, or will it take 7-9 hours. Can you do it safely with poor lighting and tired bones and spirit?

    Meat Care: The bottom line to meat care is reducing deep tissue core temps, then keep it clean and dry. In that order, bacteria begins to act on meat. Deep tissue temps influence the potential for bone sour, so keeping it immersed overnight is optimal. The first 24 hours is critical for meat salvage and edible quality. The cooler the better, without freezing. Bone sour is the greatest threat during the first 24 hours, since core temps at the time of the kill ranges from 101 F and 103 F. If meat isn't cooled to a lesser degree to temps ranging from 40-55 F, bone sour can be a serious problem. After the first 24 hours, bone sour is much more manageable and less likely to occur if temps remain lower than 55 F. If I had to choose between leaving half a moose immersed overnight the first day and warping my physical limits to unsafe levels, I'd easily choose to leave the moose immersed overnight after gutting. Why? Because the 40 F water temps with moving current around the carcass will actually do better for meat care than butchering and caching onshore in 50-60F temps. Water is not your enemy, despite conventional wisdom. Water aids in lowering core temps, especially deep-tissue temps, which is the leading cause of soured meat. After 12-24 hours post harvest, meat then should be kept clean and dry.

    Misnomers about meat care: 1. It is false to assume that heat within the muscles actually helps to dry and crust meat. This is grossly inaacurate. Meat crusts when air circulation is applied and bodily fluids drains from the tissue, as well as having a dry safe place to hang your meat qtrs. hanging is better than ground cache stowage because fluids will drain quicker and more fiiciently than lying the meat horizontially on the ground. Rememeber that vessels run up and down the legs, so a flat surface (ground cache) actually retards fluid drainage. 2. Moisture doesn't harm your game meat during the first 24 hours, it helps to cool it. Air flowing over wet meat will cool surface temps and thereby cool deeper core temps. Flowing water over surface meat will cool 25X faster than moving air, so deep tissue temps will cool as much as 25X faster than meat left to open air for the same time period. Moisture is then controlled after the first 12-24 hours to reduce the chances of bacterial invasion, since bacteria needs warm environments to colonize.

    3. After the first 24 hours, citric acid application will help protect surface bacterial invasion by interupting the surface pH (acidity), which prevents fly hatch and bacterial colonization. Reapply citric acid wash eevry other day for best results, to keep surface pH levels below 4 pH. bacteria needs an acid-free environment to thrive Above 5.0 pH. Flies require 5.5 pH and higher to hatch maggots larvae.

    Hope this helps guys.

    Larry

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Great post Larry! It is hard to argue that holding off till morning is better than possibly hurting yourself trying to work in the dark. A serious cut is no fun when it happens at the house, a remote float hunt compounds that many times over! I figure if I ever let one go splash that I will work on getting it to a more manageable position before I ever break out the knives. Sure hope I never discover the joy that is butchering a moose in water.

  18. #18
    Member ninefoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Bartlett View Post
    guys, a few things i've learned about hunting moose on rivers:

    1. Know and respect your physical limits, especially when handling a big animal at night or in water, with knives and poor lighting.
    2. Know your meat care and understand the complexities of how spoilage occurs.
    3. Do what you can in all cases to safeguard your health and meat, in that order.

    Physical limits: If it's dark and you find your moose in the water, decide how much you can do phsyically and admit your situation. Can you pulley drag it to shallow water and butcher the whole carcass within several hours, or will it take 7-9 hours. Can you do it safely with poor lighting and tired bones and spirit?

    Meat Care: The bottom line to meat care is reducing deep tissue core temps, then keep it clean and dry. In that order, bacteria begins to act on meat. Deep tissue temps influence the potential for bone sour, so keeping it immersed overnight is optimal. The first 24 hours is critical for meat salvage and edible quality. The cooler the better, without freezing. Bone sour is the greatest threat during the first 24 hours, since core temps at the time of the kill ranges from 101 F and 103 F. If meat isn't cooled to a lesser degree to temps ranging from 40-55 F, bone sour can be a serious problem. After the first 24 hours, bone sour is much more manageable and less likely to occur if temps remain lower than 55 F. If I had to choose between leaving half a moose immersed overnight the first day and warping my physical limits to unsafe levels, I'd easily choose to leave the moose immersed overnight after gutting. Why? Because the 40 F water temps with moving current around the carcass will actually do better for meat care than butchering and caching onshore in 50-60F temps. Water is not your enemy, despite conventional wisdom. Water aids in lowering core temps, especially deep-tissue temps, which is the leading cause of soured meat. After 12-24 hours post harvest, meat then should be kept clean and dry.

    Misnomers about meat care: 1. It is false to assume that heat within the muscles actually helps to dry and crust meat. This is grossly inaacurate. Meat crusts when air circulation is applied and bodily fluids drains from the tissue, as well as having a dry safe place to hang your meat qtrs. hanging is better than ground cache stowage because fluids will drain quicker and more fiiciently than lying the meat horizontially on the ground. Rememeber that vessels run up and down the legs, so a flat surface (ground cache) actually retards fluid drainage. 2. Moisture doesn't harm your game meat during the first 24 hours, it helps to cool it. Air flowing over wet meat will cool surface temps and thereby cool deeper core temps. Flowing water over surface meat will cool 25X faster than moving air, so deep tissue temps will cool as much as 25X faster than meat left to open air for the same time period. Moisture is then controlled after the first 12-24 hours to reduce the chances of bacterial invasion, since bacteria needs warm environments to colonize.

    3. After the first 24 hours, citric acid application will help protect surface bacterial invasion by interupting the surface pH (acidity), which prevents fly hatch and bacterial colonization. Reapply citric acid wash eevry other day for best results, to keep surface pH levels below 4 pH. bacteria needs an acid-free environment to thrive Above 5.0 pH. Flies require 5.5 pH and higher to hatch maggots larvae.

    Hope this helps guys.


    Larry
    good post larry...i gotta admit id still be worried bout him...specially if he wasnt gutted. Working well into a night is a fairly common occurence on alaskan hunts...maybe its just me...lots of game animals hit the dirt right at dusk though... Knifework care and safety is a given and should be first priority no matter the time of day or night...

    Great advice for the average audience though...good post

  19. #19
    Member pacific-23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninefoot View Post
    Great advice for the average audience though...good post
    Hmmm, I believe there is a thread floating around about the most dangerous thing in the backcountry... Could it be this type of attitude? "I know what I'm doing but those other guys better watch out" I do the same thing I must admit, but it gets people in a lot of trouble.... Hard to argue with the spoilage facts though, been doing research on bacteria and spoilage so I can start making salamis and such fine things at home. I could bore everyone here with all sorts of useless trivia concerning the effects of AW (available water), PH, temperature, and humidity on meat spoilage. At least if my wife's reaction is any indication you'll all be bored to tears!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacific-23 View Post
    Hmmm, I believe there is a thread floating around about the most dangerous thing in the backcountry... Could it be this type of attitude? "I know what I'm doing but those other guys better watch out"
    I really don't care to hear your thoughts on meat spoilage, but I would like to know what the hell your point is here....???

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