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Thread: 4227 & Lil'Gun in 2 454's

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    Default 4227 & Lil'Gun in 2 454's

    This is a continuation of the 454 Snyd project and the search for a replacement for H110 so as to have a reliable load in cold weather.


    So the goal is to be able to work up a load using these 355gr hammers for the 454 Redhawk and 454 Puma Levergun. No prob with OAL in the Redhawk but they need to cycle with 100% reliability in the Levergun.





    Loaded in full length 454 brass they won't cycle with this big metplat. In 45 Colt brass no prob. But, I'd like to be able to push these at 454 levels in the Puma. My 45 Colt load is 21.5gr H110 and is a max load and is accurate and about 1200fps in my SBH Hunter. I could stuff more powder in the case but don't feel comfortable doing that and the SBH doesn't need it. I also don't want to take the chance of mixing up ammo and shooting an over max/high pressure load in my SBH Hunter. So, I decided I'd trim 454 brass down, seat and crimp some dummy rounds to where they'd cycle in the levergun and see if I could have more case capacity than the 45 Colt brass. I ended up at 1.330. Half way between 45colt and 454. They cycle reliably 100% of the time, fast or slow. Plus, since it's headstamped 454 that should help keep from accidentally stuffing them into my 45 Colt SBH.


    Thus the "454 Snyd" is born... 454 brass trimmed to 1.330 using a 355wfn from a custom LBT mould. Calling it the 454 Snyd helps me keep track of it in my notes, brass, load data, etc. Besides... it kinda has a nice ring to it


    I had in the past loaded the 360gr Cast Performance boolit in 454 brass trimmed to 1.365 to cycle in the levergun. That bullet seats deeper in the case than the 355gr Hammer. The 355gr WFN in the 1.330 454 Snyd case has the same case capacity (or more) than the 360gr CP boolit in 1.365 454 brass.





    I used published load data for the 360 CP for working up loads. I had decent results with H110 when I first started this little experiment but want to go with a powder not as sensitive to cold so I tried some 4227 and LilGun. Here's the H110 results.


    1685 fps avg 6 rnds. 25 yds resting the forestock on a bag.





    Here's the same load in the 454 Redhawk. 1275fps, 47 yds.





    Over the past couple weekends, in both guns, I chronied 6 different loads with 4227 and 5 different loads with Lil'Gun using F205 primers (they always go bang shooting DA in the Redhawk). Here are the loads from both powders that gave the highest velocities and best accuracy. There was one 4227 load that shot as good as the LilGun load but at 300fps less than the LilGun load.


    This max LilGun load brass falls out of the RH cylinder, I think I could go higher but don't really see a point. This load in either gun should punch a 3-4ft hole. A penetration test is the next thing. It'll be interesting to see what difference 400fps makes with this fat boolit. I wonder what the max velocity would be before it cuts down penetration.


    10 in the tube of the levergun and six in the cylinder of the wheelgun should be enough!


    1655 and 1215 4rnd avg fps.







    4227 loads
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    Gotta love that LilGun, right good shootin there too but I think you pushed that one . . . in other words I think your RH is printin them right with your Puma.

    You may give up a tiny bit on the back end of your penetration going faster but youíll gain bigger wound channel diameter on the front end, life is all trade offs and picking the ones you want.
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    Heck Snyd, you are getting me all paranoid about using w296 in my rifle and pistol. I have had great luck with that powder and stocked up enough to last quite a while. I love your 355 gr 454 snyd and might have to give it a shot if I could find those bullets. Have you had any issues lead fouling? I was using some cast performance bullets and having nice accuracy and running them pretty hot, but I would foul. I switched over to hornady 300gr XTP Mags and have pretty good results with them. Last years black bear was out about 85 yards and it was a through and through. Of course the cast performance lbt did the same the year before at a closer range. I guess dead is dead. keep up the great reports and I'll probably have to try another powder.

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    I wouldn't worry about it unless you are relying on it in cold weather. How cold?? We talked about it in this thread if you haven't already seen it http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ld-is-too-cold

    My 45 Colt load with the same boolit is with H110. I'll hunt with it for blackies this spring (may/june) and moose in the fall. I wanted a "non-H110" load for an early spring griz hunt the April here in the Interior. We're backpacking/snowshoeing in. Who knows what the weather could do, it can get cold at night in April. I just don't want to take a chance of cold soaking my rifle all night or for a couple days and possibly having an issue with it.

    Nice job on the bears. This hunt my buddy is the primary shooter for the griz. He want's one bad. He'll be packing his 338RUM. I'll be backup inside 100yds. It would be cool to get a shot at one with the puma though to see what it does. We'll see.
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    I would like to find another powder like H110/296 too..

    The sad thing about LilGun is that is was proven in the factory (by Freedom Arms) to destroy barrels...too bad cause now I have 3 lbs that I can't bring myself to risk my 460 with it. I know there are guys saying they have been using it for years with no problems..but they probly have never cut there barrels off and split them opened to examine the damage that is really occuring. Freedom Arms DID.

    4227 will shoot about 200fps slower through a cold barrel...then as it heats up you will get a 200fps climb in velocity. If you shoot 6 reload and shoot 6 more (not fast, but just in order) you will see this happen accross the chronograph. It kept doing this to me with my 460 and I sure shot a lot of testing before I narrowed it down to the 4227 powder.

    I started looking into this with 4227 and discovered that all the IHMSA guys already knew this and have swithed to H110 for long range pistol work. Not all of them identified the fps increase but many noted that primers began to flatten and there sights needed constant adjustment to keep up with the 4227 pressure change.

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    I suspect I'll load and shoot H110 in warmer weather cuz it shoots good and I have some. i've read quite a bit about the Lil gun and flame cutting issue and it seems to be an issue with the combo of lighter boolits at higher/max velocities/pressure like max 60,000 psi 260-300 454 loads. I wonder also about the tight cylinder gap on the FA's. I would think the combo may have something to do with it. I hear it was an issue in the 357 max as well, light bullets, max load. Then I've talked with guys who've shot lots of heavy boolit moderate loads with no probs. According to the load data, this max load is 48000psi. Moderate 454. I'll see how it goes

    Another option is N110. Murphy swears by it and has shared some load data here. I picked up a little of that as well but have not tried it yet.
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    Well actually Snyd, the gun that resulted in the testing was a 454 on its 3rd barrel replacement....so Bob Baker (of FA) intentionaly used a standard 357 magnum load just to verify that it was the powder and not just the high pressures of the 454. The damage that was verified was not a high pressure round and it was not a "light" bulllet for the 357

    His test did not just show flame cutting, but actually showed that the barrel(rifling) steel had begun to flow.

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    Alright I found it....this is what Bob Baker (Pres. of FA) said about Lil Gun... I hope this can help some guys get more informed, I know it sure scared me off LilGun. Just not worth the risk for me. And yes I am also one of the guys that used it...I still have 3lbs.

    "We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

    A couple years ago we did a test with a M83, .357 Mag. using Hornady 180 gr. bullets. We loaded 50 rds. of three different loads. One was a heavy H-110 load and the other two both used Lil Gun in different quantities.

    We fired the H-110 loads first, then cut off the threaded end of the barrel. Rethreaded the barrel and shot one of the Lil Gun loads then rethreaded the barrel and shot the last Lil Gun load.

    We found even the light load of Lil Gun caused the gun to get extremely hot. The heavy Lil Gun load had the gun so hot the only place we could touch the gun was on the grips and they were very hot.

    Under magnification the surface appeared to have heated to a point of flowing using the Lil Gun loads and the heavy load was worse than the light load. This is probably due to Lil Gun having about 10% more nitro glycerin in it than H-110.

    I intentionally ran the tests with a cartridge that is less pressure than the 454 just to make sure.

    I have also heard of problems with rifles but I haven't tried to verify it by running my own tests."





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    I am not doubting what you've read about Lil'Gun powder and we do appreciate your input but I have to tell you my experiences with that powder which is substantial is absolutely not that. I did not cut any barrels but did monitor temperatures of both the cylinder gap and the cylinder and barrel. There was no difference between H110 and Lil'Gun powder in several calibers some burning as much as 30 to 40 grains of it. I guess FA has decided not to use it or recommend it and that's their right, It just wasn't a concern for me and I did not find it to be a "hotter" propellant than H110 or any of the others.

    I also found on those cartridges that I had pressure test equipment for that at the same max peak, Lil'Gun gives slightly higher velocity than H110/W286. Also the Vihta N110 is a very clean, cool powder but can't quite give the velocity of H110 at equal pressure. I do like it and could get by with just that in most magnum revolver full power loads.
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    So here we have it again, the LiGun mystery continues. I'll try it and see what I come up with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    So here we have it again, the LiGun mystery continues. I'll try it and see what I come up with.
    I think perhaps it's more appropriate to say "the unsubstantiated internet speculation around the FA mystery continues".

    Lil'gun does not cause my gun to get any hotter than it does with any other powder under any conditions.
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    Default Temperature measurment

    The curse is the inability to measure the flame temperatures inside the barrel. We can get a optical measurement at the cylinder-barrel gap on the OUTSIDE of the junction but we just can't see thru metal and there is just too much metal between the flame and the measurement. Measuring the temperature on the outside of the barrel is about the best we can do but there are so any many sources of error to deal with you just can't place too much confidence in that measurement. Indeed, temperature measurements in general under the best of conditions is difficult to do accurately - much more difficult than pressure or velocity measurements for example.

    I've been dealing with temperature measurements in all sorts of processes and equipment for well over 40 years. In addition to other things I did author the temperature measurement part of one international standard . If someone wants to discuss temperature measurements with me let's talk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedom475 View Post
    The sad thing about LilGun is that is was proven in the factory (by Freedom Arms) to destroy barrels...too bad cause now I have 3 lbs that I can't bring myself to risk my 460 with it. I know there are guys saying they have been using it for years with no problems..but they probly have never cut there barrels off and split them opened to examine the damage that is really occuring. Freedom Arms DID.
    Well I am at over 7 pounds of it burned through one of my 460s now, Iím not going to cut it open but I scope it every time I clean and there is no damage at all. I will gladly take that LilGun off your hands, itís a far superior powder to H110, mater of fact you want to trade for the H110 that had been sitting under my bench since I tried LilGun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    The curse is the inability to measure the flame temperatures inside the barrel. We can get a optical measurement at the cylinder-barrel gap on the OUTSIDE of the junction but we just can't see thru metal and there is just too much metal between the flame and the measurement. Measuring the temperature on the outside of the barrel is about the best we can do but there are so any many sources of error to deal with you just can't place too much confidence in that measurement. Indeed, temperature measurements in general under the best of conditions is difficult to do accurately - much more difficult than pressure or velocity measurements for example.

    I've been dealing with temperature measurements in all sorts of processes and equipment for well over 40 years. In addition to other things I did author the temperature measurement part of one international standard . If someone wants to discuss temperature measurements with me let's talk.
    Hard to measure internally or not if one powder is melting the lands and the other isnít there would be an marked difference externally Murphy would see on that million dollar lab equipment heís running. You canít soak steel the same with more heat . . . itís a very predictable curve, more heat = more soak = more heat outside where itís easy to see.

    I can tell no difference between H119 and LilGun for heat but common sense would tell you because itís making less pressure at same velocity (and I know it is) LilGun would, necessarily (physics, heat is bound to pressure) be slightly cooler than H110. After the years of using LilGun I have much doubt of the FA tests, they just donít jive at all with my real world first hand knowledge of the powder. I donĎt know what they had going on but I know for fact it doesnít soak a gun any more that H110, I did at first but not after looking into it myself in my guns.

    LilGun v H110/W296, LilGun gives same speed with less pressure, smaller E/S, does no more damage, lights off way better, doesnít mind cold . . . what more ya want!
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    Well I didn't want to turn this into a "Heat" issue as it is a "damage" issue...what ever caused the damage may be speculation, but the damage caused is fact.

    But I do wonder about him saying "you could only touch the grips and they were hot"...so does this mean they just hammered 50 rounds as fast as they could fire and reload the gun??... that doesn't sound like a fair test of how the powder would preform under normal shooting and range sessions. The powder may have done no damage at a slower rate of fire??

    This info was not just internet speculation and when a major fireams manufacture tests something, and post its findings, I would think guys would consider it was fully substantiated. Bob Baker isn't just some guy on the forums...he is the President of Freedom Arms...Probly makes no difference to him if you want to keep buying new barrels.

    But they do have a reputation to uphold as the Freedom Arms guns are some of the most accurate production revolvers you can buy and most will shoot into less than 3/4" at 25 yards...my 475L target that came with my gun was 5 shots into 0.6 inches at 25 yards...That is pretty good accuracy in a revolver.

    So if a FA gun shoots into 0.6 inches and then a few hundred rounds later it is shooting into 2or3 inches at 25 yards....well some guys seem to think that is still great shooting, but the truth is your gun just had a 400% increase in its group size.

    I see so many posts on the net where guys show pictures of 1,3,and 5 inch groups at 15 and 25 yards and then say something like "gun shoots better than I do" Probly NOT, followed by 6 replys by guys saying "Good shooting!".(????). I Know so many are happy hitting milk jugs at 50 yards and if that is all they are after then they are perfectly happy with the results and any day spent shooting is a great day.

    I would sure like to use LilGun in my 460 S&W because of the higher velocity with less pressure ratio...but I am affaid to. I was just shooting it 2 nights ago and I was shooting 1/2 lb jugs of Tannerite at 150 yards with it. This little exploding target measures 2 1/2"x 2 3/4 inches. People can't believe it when the big BOOOM comes back from a target they can barely see naked eye and you shoot it with a revolver. Yeah it is the big ugly 12" PC model and it weighs as much as a rifle, but it is pretty awsome. Especially since it will explode the Tannerite

    I would sure hate to loose this capabilty in 30 rounds of testing a powder.

    So Andy are you shooting 2 inch groups with your 460 at 100 yards after 7 lbs of LilGun?? if so I will probly have to trust your results and give it a try. I Know so many are happy hitting milk jugs at 50 yards but I am looking for a little more out of my shooter.

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    Default flame temperature measurement & effects

    The measurement of the effects of temperature and actual temperature measurment are two entirely different things. A shorter higher peak temperature and a lower longer sustained temperature can give the same measurment on the outside of the barrel for example. We also have the issue of relatively thick barrels compared to the inside diameter, the length, and the transit time - the metal spreads the heat to the cooler areas as the additional metal is a good heat sink. Even the rifling can have an effect - narrow lands can act differently than wide ones when it comes to heat adsorption. We can model all sorts of things on a computer- but the bottom line is that were are making a lot of assumptions about a lot of unknowns and we still aren't actually measuring temperature- just the effects.

    And even if we could measure the actual flame temperature - what about the temperature, shape, etc. of the burning power particles that impact the forcing cone? All sorts of things other than the flame temperatures can affect the errosion of steel.

    So - does Lil'gun burn hotter and cause more errosion? Throat errosion can be measured- and if errosion does happen - is it caused by Lil'gun "burning hotter?" I don't think we really know enough to make a statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Hard to measure internally or not if one powder is melting the lands and the other isnít there would be an marked difference externally Murphy would see on that million dollar lab equipment heís running. You canít soak steel the same with more heat . . . itís a very predictable curve, more heat = more soak = more heat outside where itís easy to see.

    I can tell no difference between H119 and LilGun for heat but common sense would tell you because itís making less pressure at same velocity (and I know it is) LilGun would, necessarily (physics, heat is bound to pressure) be slightly cooler than H110. After the years of using LilGun I have much doubt of the FA tests, they just donít jive at all with my real world first hand knowledge of the powder. I donĎt know what they had going on but I know for fact it doesnít soak a gun any more that H110, I did at first but not after looking into it myself in my guns.

    LilGun v H110/W296, LilGun gives same speed with less pressure, smaller E/S, does no more damage, lights off way better, doesnít mind cold . . . what more ya want!
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    Wouldn't the weight of the boolit, the powder charge, and the length of the barrel make a difference as well? Don't these things dictate the peak pressure and the pressure curve?
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    Quote Originally Posted by freedom475 View Post
    So Andy are you shooting 2 inch groups with your 460 at 100 yards after 7 lbs of LilGun?? if so I will probly have to trust your results and give it a try. I Know so many are happy hitting milk jugs at 50 yards but I am looking for a little more out of my shooter.

    Couple weeks ago 9 of 10 Hornady 300XTPmag on an 8Ē pie plate at 300 yards with it, itís an 07 made 460V but I also have a newer XVR and a non scoped 460V that shoot great too.

    I donít know what went on with the FA tests but he seems to be the only one to get those type of results so there is something funny there. I donít doubt the honesty or anything but in science if an experiment isnít repeatable the result doesnít count. He got something wrong there somehow or all the other gun makers that guarantee their guns and would be buying barrels left and right would have the LilGun warning also, you know they checked it out, theyíd be stupid not to. Nobody can say what did the damage in the FA tests, no LilGun users I have ever talked to has seen any more damage than with H110, heck Murphy tests powder for a living, heís no fool and doesnít see it. There are a lot of LilGun users out there, if it was as put in the FA tests there would be thousands of guns with damage, where are they?
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    Default So many variables

    Bullet weight etc. obviously affect the pressures and temperatures - as do lots of other known and unknown factors. Even ambient temperatures can change things like we found out with H110.

    Length of the cylinder appears to me to be a factor. The FA cylinders are short relative compared to a S&W X frame for example so the throat erosion in FA revolvers may be partially due to that difference. It appears that the peak pressures and temperatures are close to the case mouth - a longer cylinder would therefore result in less pressure at the throat although velocites would be higher.

    I feel throat erosion - or lack of it - in the S&W X frames is an interesting study. We know the S&W cylinders are longer - did S&W know something when they developed the X frame or just get lucky when it comes to throat errosion? Also - the barrels in the .460s are EDM products rather than the normal button, cut, or forged rifling. I would guess the EDM barrels are less dense than hammer forged or machined barrels - that would normally cause more erosion?


    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Wouldn't the weight of the boolit, the powder charge, and the length of the barrel make a difference as well? Don't these things dictate the peak pressure and the pressure curve?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Wouldn't the weight of the boolit, the powder charge, and the length of the barrel make a difference as well? Don't these things dictate the peak pressure and the pressure curve?
    Yes, and the time under pressure and temperature. When we talk about damage to barrels, throats, forcing cones, rifling, we are really talking about erosion. This is from the HOT, HIGH pressure gas working away at the steel. Heat and pressure together removing (regardless of what word is used to describe this process) part of the dimensional infrastructure of your gun.

    I do think that I can shoot any 454, with some of what are considered normal bear loads, loaded with H110, N110, Lil'Gun or 4227 and get the gun too hot to touch in a couple of cylinders full of ammo. That proves nothing except guns get hot. It is generally consider common knowledge that the faster you shoot, the greater this wear takes place. Shooting preheated barrels generates more heat.

    This gas erosion in gun barrels was generally just considered a large capacity (magnum) rifle problem because those guns have higher pressure (over 60,000 psi) and greater gas volume. Well today we have the 454 and 460 and others that share that high pressure, high gas volume with rifles. So we can expect some of the same results. I had no grief with the info coming from FA about this powder until I read about a 357. A 357 is mild pressure and lower gas volume cartridge and though I believe every shot erodes a barrel I have always doubted it measurable in less than a few thousand rounds from cartridges such as the 357. So I dunno about that info.

    As to deterioration of accuracy after using Lil'Gun, one of the guns (and owners) which I used in a test a couple months back came out and shot for us last week. On the 300 yard gong he shot a nice five shot group into 4 5/8" from sand bagged wrists with his 454, 6" barreled FA gun. This was with iron sights, he normally does about 4" with the 4X scope. I know for fact that this gun which is new, has about 400 to 500 rounds through it with only Lil'Gun. The only powder ever used and I have loaded all the ammo. My 475 LB custom will also shoot this good but I can't do but about 8 to 9" on this gong with its Bowen Rough Country sights. And it has several thousand rounds through it the last 400 or so with Lil'Gun.

    So I cannot say if Lil'Gun is good or bad but I'm starting to think there was possibly a batch, a particular lot that was maybe was not right, though this is highly unlikely.
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