Albany VS Hudson Bay VS James Bay freighter canoes?

[BluNosDav]

After searching this forum, it seems that the Hudson Bay is more popular than either the smaller Albany, or the larger James Bay, in the Scott line of freighter canoes. Is it like Goldie-Locks: the A is too small, the JB is too big, but the HB is just right? Or something else?

What really puzzles me is that the JB is not the most popular model. Since bigger is usually more desirable, especially since they all require a motor for propulsion, and a trailer for transport. It does seem like the hull shape of the JB is slightly less canoe-like, and looks more like a long-narrow-motorboat. But, I've never ridden/driven any of these boats.

One last question, since I've always paddled double-enders (like my current Old Town Tripper), and never had a motorized square-stern, I've always considered canoes to be full-displacement hulls. Makes me wonder how these freighters get up to 20-knots or so? A canoe running up on-step, who'da thunk it!

Looking forward to learning something new today, Dave.

[BluNosDav]

Just thought of something;
@ 22' 8" the James Bay is too long for the "restricted" section of the Kenai River.
Not sure if a F&G Trooper would ever actually write a "ticket" on a canoe, though?

[FamilyMan]

the A is too small

Certainly the Albany is smaller, but that has its benefits too. I've been in spots where I'm going full a-starboard to clear the next obstacle; if I were a few feet longer, that would surely hurt me, since I do have enough oomph to go with my 15 HP.

So far as loading, I've carried 3 complete (separate) hunting camp setups, and a 300+ pound hunting partner in the bow, plus gas, water, etc... for a 100 mile trip. Yeah, my blue tarp shows above my gunnels from stem to stern (and antlers protrude on the way back), carrying less gas, water, food (yeah, and less beer), but I'm not overloaded.

Point is, I can still operate in 4 foot seas safely, if not dryly. In a few months I'll get my spray rails mounted, that might solve some of the problem.

I'm way happy with my Albany.

[grit]

I think the HB is more popular because it is the most versatile. It will handle 2 guys and a couple moose and burn very little fuel.The JB is awesome but ways almost twice as much as the HB.I'm not sure about the 4' seas though,after a couple feet I start looking for cover in the HB. But I don't like 4'-5' seas even in my 20' big lake boat.
these freighters are amazing river craft and the perfect moose hunting boat

[Rick]

The Hudson Bay is extremely versatile. The Goldilocks analogy is apt. Big enough to haul a substantial load with economy on rough water, but small enough to poke around on skinny water. With my mud motor mounted, the 21' hull will turn 180 degrees in as little as 25'. Very useful size/capacity. Weighs 250#, while the James Bay weighs 450#. The JB won't work as well in skinny waters. All of these Scott freighters are made for real backwoods utility and durability. Great boats.

[mainer_in_ak]

Having run water in and been around all three that you mention, they are all good boats. The Albany is probably my personal favorite as a moose hunting/duck hunting/dragging up shallows kind of rig. Hope to see Montague Island a bit in the James Bay when boudarc decides to "get bold".

In really skinny water with lot's or rocks, I've seen the Albany go up some very skinny stuff that longer boats simply couldn't go up. That's is a huge plus in my book.

[Rick]

At least one of our distinguished forum members used a Scott Albany as his hunting canoe for ten years. Years ago, he upgraded to a Hudson Bay and a MudBuddy Mini. Thus equipped, the HB is more capable for general use, hunting and traveling, than the Albany, including on skinny water.

Last summer, I carried my 16' Wenonah (64#) upside down, in load cover fashion, on my HB ... for little creeks and off-river lakes and ponds. Replacing my 15 hp Yamaha with the MB Mini 23 (in mid-Sept) changed the character of the boat dramatically. And at 250#, the HB is only 65# heavier than the Albany ... neither is likely to be portaged. Both are great boats, but most here who have made the investment have chosen the Hudson Bay.

By the way, Scott makes a slightly narrower (tumblehome, rather than flare) HB variant, the Allagash model, for use in Maine, but it's still the full 21' in length.

[BluNosDav]

Rick,

I think the HB already has a hull with tumblehome, it's the JB that has flat sides.
That plus the JB's full transom is why I originally referred to it as "less canoe-like".

Thanx, Dave.

PS - Back when we lived in Maine, we paddled the Allagash River in a 20' Old Town Tripper XL.

[Rick]

Hey, BluNosDav ...

Talked with Scott Canoe about what is the difference between the standard Hudson Bay and the Allagash variant. As per the Scott production manager, the HB and Allagash are the same hull. However, prior to installing the seats and thwarts, they use industrial strap to pull the hull's sides closer together and then install the narrower seat and thwarts needed for the Allagash variant. In other words, the Allagash has increased tumblehome, resulting in a hull that's about 6"narrower, thus meeting the length/width ratio required, by regulation, in Maine's Allagash. I believe one of our distinguished HB owners has the Allagash variant, which may be somewhat faster than the wider standard HB, with similar power. The James Bay is intended for bigger water, not skinny water or jumping beaver dams. They're all great boats.

The Scott employee I talked to has been admiring, like the rest of us, the pictures oyster has been posting of his stripper freighter project. He and Pat are just as wow-ed as the rest of us.

[kandik]

At least one of our distinguished forum members used a Scott Albany as his hunting canoe for ten years. Years ago, he upgraded to a Hudson Bay and a MudBuddy Mini. Thus equipped, the HB is more capable for general use, hunting and traveling, than the Albany, including on skinny water.

Last summer, I carried my 16' Wenonah (64#) upside down, in load cover fashion, on my HB ... for little creeks and off-river lakes and ponds. Replacing my 15 hp Yamaha with the MB Mini 23 (in mid-Sept) changed the character of the boat dramatically. And at 250#, the HB is only 65# heavier than the Albany ... neither is likely to be portaged. Both are great boats, but most here who have made the investment have chosen the Hudson Bay.

By the way, Scott makes a slightly narrower (tumblehome, rather than flare) HB variant, the Allagash model, for use in Maine, but it's still the full 21' in length.

My HB is Allagash legal. I ordered the regular variety , but when I arrived in Whitehorse years ago
they had shipped me the narrow one by mistake. I actually like the look of the tumblehome. It may be a slightly
wetter ride on bad days but it has a sleek and protective feeling. It's also easier to pull gill nets without hurting
your back because you don't have to lean over so far. It's exactly 52 inches at the gunnels.

[BluNosDav]

Very interesting stuff Rick & kandik! Here's the section of the Allagash rules:

2.3. A canoe is defined as a form of small watercraft long and narrow, sharp on both ends or sharp on one end and blunt at the other, usually propelled by paddles or small motors and having no sails. The width at the widest point shall not exceed 20% of the craft’s overall length, nor shall the transom, if any, exceed 26 inches in width. Measurement shall be the outside of the hull but shall not include gunwales, rub rails, or spray rails, if any.

The HB already has a 26" transom, so it's within the regs. (maybe the regs were written to include the HB?)
The HB's 56" gunwales and 252" OAL, give it a ratio of 22%, the Allagash's 52" gunwales bring this down to 20%.
With any amount of tumblehome, the widest point will be below the gunwales, and therefore "too wide"?
But, it's a silly bureaucratic rule if you ask me, but of course they didn't ask me. (HA-HA) Glad there's no such nonsense in Alaska!

Like kandic, I appreciate the asthetic of tumblehome in a canoe, I'd love to see a photo of an Allagash HB.
Thanx, Dave.

[Rick]

BluNosDav ...

Follow the link in this thread to kandik's photobucket page to see many good pictures of his Allagash variant.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...and-windshield

[Wolf Trapper]

I am curious...can a 4 wheeler be safely dropped into a Hudson Bay by over head hoist and removed by the same. Does it fit in the boat? IS it stable for travel? what is the draft on a JBay when loaded with 500 pounds vs the H Bay????

[mainer_in_ak]

probably not, considering the seats are most times, glassed into the canoe, impeding things of that size to be loaded down on the floor.

[Boud'arc]

500 pounds ain't very noticeable on a James Bay depending on where you put it. Don't think a 4 wheeler would be a good idea on a JB either. I've have tossed the idea of getting a Rokon. Easier to load and unload I it will fit crossways at an angle in the aft cargo area.

Montague! Ha! Well maybe. I picked up some material to build a splash deck and I have ideas about building some sponson splash rails out of blue foam covered with the same material as the splash deck. One thing is for sure if I do go then Mainer is going with me until one of us says "Uncle".

[FamilyMan]

Mainer is going with me until one of us says "Uncle".

Mainer can do a heckuva lot of things really really well, but I bet he's unable to say that word.

[Rick]

There is no front seat in the HB. There are center and rear glassed-in bench seats, but no front seat. Seat brackets are glassed into the hull for use if someone wants to mount a front seat. Makes for a large clear cargo area. I would think one of the smaller 4 wheelers would fit up there nicely. 3 wheelers would work even better. Wouldn't need a crane and might be able to haul 2.

[nessmuck]

Very interesting stuff Rick & kandik! Here's the section of the Allagash rules:

2.3. A canoe is defined as a form of small watercraft long and narrow, sharp on both ends or sharp on one end and blunt at the other, usually propelled by paddles or small motors and having no sails. The width at the widest point shall not exceed 20% of the craft’s overall length, nor shall the transom, if any, exceed 26 inches in width. Measurement shall be the outside of the hull but shall not include gunwales, rub rails, or spray rails, if any.

The HB already has a 26" transom, so it's within the regs. (maybe the regs were written to include the HB?)
The HB's 56" gunwales and 252" OAL, give it a ratio of 22%, the Allagash's 52" gunwales bring this down to 20%.
With any amount of tumblehome, the widest point will be below the gunwales, and therefore "too wide"?
But, it's a silly bureaucratic rule if you ask me, but of course they didn't ask me. (HA-HA) Glad there's no such nonsense in Alaska!

Like kandic, I appreciate the asthetic of tumblehome in a canoe, I'd love to see a photo of an Allagash HB.
Thanx, Dave.

What exactly in simple terms is " tumblehome" ????? And is it good to have ??? Thanks

[bobmikk]

What exactly in simple terms is " tumblehome" ????? And is it good to have ??? Thanks

You may have your answer by now....but I will add some feedback.
It is suggested that a tumblehome hull (see image), may be benefical for a dryer paddeling experience, by deflecting water away from the hull more efficiently. To me that is a moot point for these larger freighters.

Converting a HB (straight hull) into an Allagash model (tumblehome hull) the manufacturer uses straps to squeeze the canoe to reduce the hull width and then installs the seating to hold that shape.

Attachment 66931

[Sid]

could not get the photo [ Attachment ]