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Thread: another fireforming question

  1. #1

    Default another fireforming question

    I am in the process of fireforming ( bullseye, TP , cream o wheat) for my 35 Gibbs. I wish that I could say i enjoy it, but it is becoming onerous and by a long way my least favourite handloading activity. Is there any reason why I can't produce the false shoulder, seat a bullet to touch the lands and fire with a reduced load? Don't worry I am not going to try unless I get some reliable input that it is safe....... or stupid.

    Cheers Dan

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35gibber View Post
    I am in the process of fireforming ( bullseye, TP , cream o wheat) for my 35 Gibbs. I wish that I could say i enjoy it, but it is becoming onerous and by a long way my least favourite handloading activity. Is there any reason why I can't produce the false shoulder, seat a bullet to touch the lands and fire with a reduced load? Don't worry I am not going to try unless I get some reliable input that it is safe....... or stupid.

    Cheers Dan
    Yes, you can do that. Just "headspace" by pushing the bullet into the lands. Use a lighter bullet and a normal but reduced load with a faster burning powder. In other words, rifle powder, on the faster side and reduced from a normal load for the caliber, and jam it into the lands. This way you wont need ashoulder. You didn't mention it but, what kind/caliber of brass you're using?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  3. #3

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    I had been using all types of 30-06 and .270. But for this I think I will use new Remington 35 Whelen Brass, neck up to .375 and down to 35 to for the false shoulder/doughnut

    Cheers

  4. #4

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    ** Proceed at your own risk!! **

    I'm not too familiar with the gibbs. If the 35 Whelen and the 35 Gibbs have the same case length and the Whelen has the shoulder further back than the Gibbs then the Whelen cartridge should chamber in the Gibbs. If that is the case then all that should be required is some loaded Whelen ammo. Chamber, fire, remove fire formed case. Measure you're new case to see how much length you gained (hopefully it didn't get much longer).

    You will have a little more stretching that would be normal for those who aren't as lazy about wildcatting but it's a lot simpler. Im not sure if it really makes a difference if case lengths between the two rounds are the same. Any case wear is probably going to be academic if you full length size your brass after every shot. Assuming there is no thinning of the brass due to stretching along the length of the case, fire forming actually makes brass shorter. In reality, if fire forming works properly, they come out about the same.

    If you can stand fire formed brass next to un-fire formed the fire formed is noticably longer then you've probably got excessive head stretching. Your fire formed brass should also have a shorter neck than the unformed. You can really see head seperation if you split a case with a saw.

    I should mention that there is a risk of the case seperating at the head and spraying hot gas back in your face depending on bolt design. I would suggest a full face shild of some variety the first couple you try to fireform. The risk is small in my experience but is your eyesight really worth it? That goes for shooting anything.

    In my experience new cases usually won't seperate (didn't say never). I've seen lots of 308-> 06, 300win -> 300wby and have yet to see a seperated head. Just a very very short neck. I've also done some pretty radical fireforming with 300H&H -> 300Wby and 375H&H -> 375Wby. The worst that happened was a few split necks (old brass). All you are doing is bumping a shoulder. However, protect your face and hands! The gun will be fine, it's you that you need to worry about.

    If that all sounds high risk then just load up some whelen and seat the bullet way out touching or just shy of the rifling. Don't worry about changing the powder, just use the starting load of whatever powder you have data for. Don't worry about a crimp either. Find something fun and interesting to shoot at. Wildcatting isn't supposed to be a drag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    ** Proceed at your own risk!! **

    I'm not too familiar with the gibbs. If the 35 Whelen and the 35 Gibbs have the same case length and the Whelen has the shoulder further back than the Gibbs then the Whelen cartridge should chamber in the Gibbs. If that is the case then all that should be required is some loaded Whelen ammo. Chamber, fire, remove fire formed case. Measure you're new case to see how much length you gained (hopefully it didn't get much longer).

    You will have a little more stretching that would be normal for those who aren't as lazy about wildcatting but it's a lot simpler. Im not sure if it really makes a difference if case lengths between the two rounds are the same. Any case wear is probably going to be academic if you full length size your brass after every shot. Assuming there is no thinning of the brass due to stretching along the length of the case, fire forming actually makes brass shorter. In reality, if fire forming works properly, they come out about the same.

    If you can stand fire formed brass next to un-fire formed the fire formed is noticably longer then you've probably got excessive head stretching. Your fire formed brass should also have a shorter neck than the unformed. You can really see head seperation if you split a case with a saw.

    I should mention that there is a risk of the case seperating at the head and spraying hot gas back in your face depending on bolt design. I would suggest a full face shild of some variety the first couple you try to fireform. The risk is small in my experience but is your eyesight really worth it? That goes for shooting anything.

    In my experience new cases usually won't seperate (didn't say never). I've seen lots of 308-> 06, 300win -> 300wby and have yet to see a seperated head. Just a very very short neck. I've also done some pretty radical fireforming with 300H&H -> 300Wby and 375H&H -> 375Wby. The worst that happened was a few split necks (old brass). All you are doing is bumping a shoulder. However, protect your face and hands! The gun will be fine, it's you that you need to worry about.

    If that all sounds high risk then just load up some whelen and seat the bullet way out touching or just shy of the rifling. Don't worry about changing the powder, just use the starting load of whatever powder you have data for. Don't worry about a crimp either. Find something fun and interesting to shoot at. Wildcatting isn't supposed to be a drag.
    What will hold that rimless case against the bolt head to allow it to fire? There is some .200" of an inch between the shoulder of the whelen and the Gibbs. It will need a false shoulder or a bullet jammed into the rifling. This is an accident waiting to happen.

    The 280 Rem is the only case that will form into a correct length Gibbs cartridge. The length of the Gibbs is 2.502" and the 280 Rem is 2.540" and it fireforms very closely to the Gibbs length. I haven't done the 35 Gibbs but have done a couple of the 30 calibers and they form very easily by necking to 338 then down for a false shoulder, using 280 brass. I believe the Gibbs has only a .250" neck in the 30 cal, not sure about the 35.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    What will hold that rimless case against the bolt head to allow it to fire? There is some .200" of an inch between the shoulder of the whelen and the Gibbs. It will need a false shoulder or a bullet jammed into the rifling. This is an accident waiting to happen.

    The 280 Rem is the only case that will form into a correct length Gibbs cartridge. The length of the Gibbs is 2.502" and the 280 Rem is 2.540" and it fireforms very closely to the Gibbs length. I haven't done the 35 Gibbs but have done a couple of the 30 calibers and they form very easily by necking to 338 then down for a false shoulder, using 280 brass. I believe the Gibbs has only a .250" neck in the 30 cal, not sure about the 35.
    Yes, my bad. No belt for headspace. Big no-no. Thank you Murphy. Shouldn't open mouth without all details anyway.

    The closest to cheating is going to be Whelen brass loaded with the bullet way out. Leave it far enough out that you've got some resistance to closing the bolt. 35 Whelen might stretch out long enough, sounds like there isn't much room on the neck to lose so maybe not.

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    I do this for my 8x60S: Neck up a new Winchester .30'06 case to 8mm, load a 220 grain Hornady, use a Lee factory crimp die. I use a tiny bit of CLP on a paper towel, go over the case (but not the neck), the bullets are load quite long, and I have to push to get the bolt closed. BANG! Perfect 8x60S cartridges.

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    Take factory 35 Whelen ammo and put it in an inertia type bullet puller. Slam it down on a hard surface just enough to get the bullet to jump the crimp and be far enough out too seat in the lands. I have done it this way when making 30 Gibbs ammo by using factory 06 ammo. Lost about 2 out of every 10 cases that were fireed though.

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