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Thread: Caribou Hunting closure

  1. #21
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    The 2010/2011 CUA’s expired on 12/31/2011. The proposed action will renew the CUA’s for 2012-13.
    The far western portion of NOAT (i.e., west of the Kugururok River & Maiyumerak Mountains) receives a substantial amount of hunting use due to its proximity to Kotzebue.

    Since at least 1990, subsistence hunters in this area have consistently contended that transporter services negatively impact subsistence opportunities. Village representatives express concern that competition exists between non-federally qualified hunters and subsistence hunters for specific groups of caribou. Village representatives consistently state that activities associated with transporter visitor services (i.e. aircraft overflights, hunting, camping along migration corridors) actually alter local migration patterns or behavior, interfering with or even precluding subsistence hunting opportunities in those local areas."



    When 10,500+ people pass through, conflicts arise.....guys in airplanes running Caribou pizzed off alotta people up this way. Anybody who can afford it comes up and hunts Unit23, there all kinds......

    Read the above as a Parks meeting in Noatak around 1990 "I couldnt belive it!! Guides with an airplane moved thos Caribou to thoe guys over there, and buzzed the herd, running them full blast into the water, and buzzing them back to those guys, untill they shot what they wanted, and I called for a Trooper!".
    I bellive this was a complaint with the same outfit up Kobuk River, near Onion Portage. Twas in the Local paper several times, and something was done about it. One idiot ruins it for the many.

    Did you notice that the plane restriction is specificly ONLY for Caribou Hunters, and the ammount they could fly into the 'fringe" for lack of a better word?

    The village does not have state city status. It is run by the tribe that lives in the preserves confines, and predate the preserve. They are run by an elders council, and the elders council speaks for the village of Noatak. When ever laws are propsed Local folks can speak up and give opinions at meetings. Stopping the herding of Caribou by Guides/transporters was the cause, and it truely seems to have eliminated the problem. Theres plenty of Caribou for everyone, but herding isnt hunting.




    "The 2010-11 system unduly restricted transporters and did not adequately address the stipulation to minimize the potential for conflicts with traditional subsistence users. To resolve these issues, the NPS will implement the following changes for the 2012-13 CUA’s:

    • The limits on the number of transporters and clients will be eliminated.
    • Commercial Transporter Visitor Services CUA holders will be authorized to transport non-federally qualified caribou hunters into the area west of the Kugururok River and Maiyumerak Mountains after September 15th unless authorized by the Superintendent to provide services before September 15th.
    • The Superintendent will consult with Commercial Transporter Visitor Services CUA holders, local villages and other agencies on a regular basis beginning on August 15 of each year to discuss the status of the caribou migration across the Noatak National Preserve.
    • The State of Alaska Noatak Controlled Use Area and pilots of private aircraft will be unaffected by these conditions (see map in PEPC file attachments). Holders of Commercial Transporter Visitor Service CUA’s will still be authorized to transport non-federally qualified caribou hunters east of the Kugururok River and Maiyumerak Mountains throughout the hunting season, without a restriction on dates or numbers of clients.

    Commercial Transporter Visitor Services for Dall Sheep and Moose sport hunters are not limited by the September 15 provision.
    The CUA’s will continue to include stipulations for transporter operations to protect wilderness values, visitor experience, and biological and cultural resources. The CUA stipulations will be reviewed by the Superintendent and revised as appropriate at the end of every year."


    I could be wrong, but the above Seems like MORE Hunting opportunitys arriving.

    It looks like, to me, that they are trying to let the first Caribou pass through by Septs beginning, when the reach the Noatak vally in early september , establishing trails of poop and piss that other Caribou will most definitly follow. These trails are especcially usefull for Caribou to move along safely and for Hunters to be able to intercept them. Any time after 9/15 there will be well established trails made by the lead bands of cows passing through , undisturbed at the rivers crossings, and ANY hunter, floating, walking, boating will have a good place to catch what they came for, prime Bulls. I look for caribou tracks on the rivers edge and when I find a 'ditch' where more than 50 have moved over, I wait and hunt that place, and my chances at catching a Caribou go up 99 percent. Bull arrive later, following the females south as rut approches in the beginning of Octocber and Caribou Bulls are banding up at the rear of the herds.
    -------------------------------------------------
    "Essentially NPS trumps BOG's authority to establish seasons and regulate hunting."

    That has been the biggest bone in the whole 'subsitance laws" fight between the state and the Feds. Even I cannot hunt under Fed regs there, and Im in the same Unit, and follow state laws and limits.


    "So if you have your own airplane it's not closed. IF you rely on a transporter to get you there....it's now closed by order of the Noatak Park Superintendent"

    Its been closed for alotta years, The no-fly is in effect Only if your a Caribou Hunter and you dont want to boat up or float down or walk, and over 11,000 people access the preserve every year..
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    When 10,500+ people pass through, conflicts arise.....guys in airplanes running Caribou pizzed off alotta people up this way. Anybody who can afford it comes up and hunts Unit23, there all kinds......

    "So if you have your own airplane it's not closed. IF you rely on a transporter to get you there....it's now closed by order of the Noatak Park Superintendent"
    Friend, NO WAY is there 10,500 people visiting the Noatak Refuge.

    It is well documented that there has been less than 500 non locals hunting caribou on the entire Noatak Refuge...even with the no-fly zone and the limited CUA's and limited # of clients instituted in 2010 and 2011.

    The problem at the Noatak is the State of Alaska has surrendered it's authority to manage wildlife to the whims of another NPS park superintendent.

  3. #23
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    Yer right, its 11,722 according to the NPS.

    http://www.nature.nps.gov/stats/viewReport.cfm

    As well, "less than 500" Subsitance Hunters (even if were 499 ) that would be as if every man woman and child were out hunting, school teacher too, but its not that way......Im telling ya, theres alotta people passing through there, and I bet 1/2 are in September. I have seen it first hand, the village is Hunter friendly and profits greatly with rentals and selling stuffs. Its not all bad, but the jump in numbers over the last few year may be due to the increase to 2 caribou for Non res hunters.

    The so many Caribou Hunters per season limiting cap is 'Off" now for transporters. There will be more Hunters there, now.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Yer right, its 11,722 according to the NPS.

    http://www.nature.nps.gov/stats/viewReport.cfm

    As well, "less than 500" Subsitance Hunters (even if were 499 ) that would be as if every man woman and child were out hunting, school teacher too, but its not that way......Im telling ya, theres alotta people passing through there, and I bet 1/2 are in September. I have seen it first hand, the village is Hunter friendly and profits greatly with rentals and selling stuffs. Its not all bad, but the jump in numbers over the last few year may be due to the increase to 2 caribou for Non res hunters.

    The so many Caribou Hunters per season limiting cap is 'Off" now for transporters. There will be more Hunters there, now.
    I went to your link and I have NO IDEA how you come up with 11,000+ people visiting the Noatak annually.

    And I was talking about 500 NON LOCAL hunters...

  5. #25
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    Go on back ,again, my friend, and looky looky

    Kilck on the link, when the page pops up click on "select a park"

    then scroll down to noatakNPRS and clik on that, a new page will open.

    when th enext page pops up, go to the square on the right, 'Noatak NPRES Reports' and select 'visitation by month and year.

    then click on that and scroll to the bottom and last years vistors who registerd were 11,722 people who visited the Noatak preserve.

    I wonder how many just went without even registering.........??.


    There are a great deal of subsistance Hunter up the Noatak that are Not Locals, most are from Kotzebue, a few from Kivalina and a few more from other villages that are there short term or with family they support, but dont live in the area. Forum Member Cjustinm is one......I dont think he tells the PS when he go's ~~LOL!!~~
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Stranger and Ned..........and anyone else interested, it would be best to get the whole story from the Park Super. I spoke to him on Monday. Rather than repeat stuff here, I suggest folks call him personally. His direct number is: 907-442-8301. This closure is his doing and he says he will take the heat for it. He said it was fine to post his number.
    Once you get the whole story, you will see that this plan isn't that bad. It is not a hard and fast closure, but dependant upon bou numbers.
    Give the guy a call!
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    Thanx MT,

    When I talked with Linda J, she gave me the impression that it was basicly being sure that Caribou trails are established and the lead herds unturned so all the others will folow, and Im thinking I posted that idea...... Thats why the time is a flexable, and called by the Park Super.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

  8. #28

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    I still say that it is a bunch of bull crap that they can shut down one of my hunting areas for no biological or scientifical reasons. From the maps of caribou I have seen they don't migrate through that area anyway. In fact I was told that they didn't migrate through that area last year until mid October. Someone said there was an arctical in the local paper about that. My complaint is what's next? shut the rest of the preserve down too? It was created as a "National Preserve" with certain use rights of the citiizens of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! It wasn't created as a "NATIONAL PARK" which has different regulations then "PRESERVES". If anyone has ever dealt with the NPS or government in general, once they take something they don't tend to give it back and once they taste vulnerable blood they keep looking for more blood to feed their off spring!!! If this is a precedent of what will happen in other Preserves, get ready to not hunt in AK because we can't get there by walking in. Wasn't the old guy and gal on the Yukon last year enough for people to say the NPS is out of control already? Every person that doesn't live in the region should be thoughly hacked off about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Stranger and Ned..........and anyone else interested, it would be best to get the whole story from the Park Super. I spoke to him on Monday. Rather than repeat stuff here, I suggest folks call him personally. His direct number is: 907-442-8301. This closure is his doing and he says he will take the heat for it. He said it was fine to post his number.
    Once you get the whole story, you will see that this plan isn't that bad. It is not a hard and fast closure, but dependant upon bou numbers.
    Give the guy a call!
    Facts are facts no matter how the Noatak superintendent spins it to you.

    If you have your own airplane it is not closed. It is only closed to those who rely on an air taxi for transportation.

    The State of Alaska is letting the NPS manage hunters.

    The BOG and the Governor are silent on this new management tool the NPS has invented.

    I guess if it affected guides there would be a response from the BOG...but because it does not affect guided hunters (non residents) the BOG could care less.

  10. #30
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    What seems to be overlooked constanly when issues about hunting and transportation arise on designations created under ANILCA is the fact that the FEDs have jurisdiction, it is a constant source of head butting between the State of Alaska, the FEDs and the people of the State.

    The FEDs are not required to follow ADFG recommendations/regulations on game management, instead may choose to follow them.


    Many may earn a better understanding of these doings if they took time to read protions of ANILCA from time to time. I have done so myself and will do it again, I am certain.



    http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/anilca/title13.html#1314

    http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/anilca/title08.html#809

    http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/anilca/toc.html
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  11. #31
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    Thids whole subject was 'New" 20 years ago. It only is in effect for caribou Hunters who fly in...noone else. Keeps the lazy ones out who would use a plane to herd animals to them.

    The simple solution; Buy an airplane, or draw a tag or move to Noatak. The hard solution; Float through , walk through or hunt elsewhere. Thats the options I face too.

    The Feds have been manageing the lands under their control since inception. Bag limits and seasons are way different than the State of Ak's, and have always been as far as I know.
    Kobuk Vally National Park is a great place to Hunt Caribou.

    The Biology of letting the lead herds establish trails that Hunters hunt on and Caribou follow is no different than a Salmon escapement quota on any given river thats being heavily used.

    11,722 folks visted last year with these rules in place, no problemo.........as well , several are sucessfull Hunters here on the AOD forums Hunted there sucessfully as well.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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    Back in 2007 I had a great hunt on the Killik River. The only person I saw besides my partner in 10 days was our pilot.
    Now I hear the Killik is off-limits for hunting. You may be right STRANGER, but it seem like we are always losing, year after year.
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    Well, the State Vs. Feds control of lands and regulations fight is old and tireing, as it revolves around land control. Im with the State in thinking ALL residents in Ak are subsitance User/Hunters, rather than the Fed view that only those that reside in the immediate area are Subsitance hunter/users, so I whole heartedly agree that we are indeed 'loseing', for lack of a better word.


    I hunt the Kobuk Vally National Park in Fall for Caribou, the Selawik National Wildlife preserve most all winter, and when I lived on the Northern Seward Pennesula, I hunted the Bering Land Bridge National Park, (though I never did find that dam bridge).....anyway, the Fed hunts are most generous in catch and allow folks who truely live from the land the opportunity to do so. Now, when I visit my oldest son, like I did in January, I am no longer a 'Subsitance" hunter on the Landbridge, although he is,so we dont hunt that direction anymore, we go to the vast state lands east and south of there and Hunt the wintering WACH, and all that follows it....

    Its a myrid of land issues and ownership, and who wants what done. At least the Village of Noatak doesnt shut out people to their Private lands, so hunters and recreational folks can enjoy what is out there and not worry about Tresspass issues,or worry about where to camp or gather firewood, really no trouble outside of cabin break ins. Noatak is a very 'hunter friendly' village.

    I 'm thinking the Killik is not unhuntable, its unlandable for Caribou Hunters, for a given ammount of time, as per PS.

    Did you do a float hunt Mkay? Did you get into Noatak?
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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  14. #34
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    STRANGER, I drove to a strip on the Haul Rd, flew via Bettles Air to the north edge of the Brooks, landed on a lake by the Killik. We got 4 caribou and saw a few wolves, bears, wolverine. I told others what a great place it as,only to be told it was off limits for hunting. Plan on floating the Noatak in the future but am too lucky with the draw hunts at this time. I would be willing to pay some sort of trespass fee to hunt the Killik in the future.
    I wonder if our former (VA) social worker who lives now in Kotzebue has hit you up for advice. By now she should be an experienced pilot. Several years ago I took her boy on a caribou hunt on the Stoyahuk.
    My child was inmate of the month at Mat-Su pre-trial Correctional facility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    The simple solution; Buy an airplane, or draw a tag or move to Noatak. The hard solution; Float through , walk through or hunt elsewhere. Thats the options I face too.

    The Feds have been manageing the lands under their control since inception. Bag limits and seasons are way different than the State of Ak's, and have always been as far as I know.
    The simple solution would be for the BOG to assert their authority to manage hunting seasons. There is no closed season for Caribou and the Feds are LAND managers. The feds have chosen to manage non local hunters by closing part of the Noatak to those who rely on a commercial operator to provide flight services.

    The feds can not close the area to people with their own airplane....and IF the Feds were challenged on what the Superintendent has decided...to close the area to people with a hunting license who rely on a transporter...they would loose.

    The FEDS can only close an area for BIOLOGICAL reason...it's right there in ANILCA...

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    Default Anilca limitations, savings clauses

    LIMITATIONS, SAVINGS CLAUSES

    §815. Nothing in this title shall be construed as--


    (3) authorizing a restriction on the taking of fish and wildlife for nonsubsistence uses on the public lands (other than national parks and park monuments) unless necessary for the conservation of healthy populations of fish and wildlife...",

    There is no conservation issue at the Noatak...and what the NPS superintendent has done is place a restriction on nonsubsitence users...but only the users who rely on a transporter.




  17. #37
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    Prehaps you dont understand the biology involved.

    11,722 visitors last year. Among the majority of Hunters are Caribou Hunters.

    Small bands of WACH Caribou are moving South from the North Slope, and converging into larger herds, that ultimatly end up on the Northern Seward Pennesula for Winter. The Noatak and Kobuk Vallys are where the smaller herd meet and grow.

    Caribou are herd animals. They generally follow an old cow as she walks her migration. The cows will lead a herd back and forth over a year, over thousands of miles. The rest generally follow (Generally I say, nothing is absolute) along as do herd animals.

    When these first herds are headed South in late August, early September, the set the "Trail". Turn them back or have them take a ridge or two to the east and the majority of the following herd will take that rout too.

    In the establishment of these trails, Hunters, Locals, Non Locals and Non residents benifit from being able to productivly hunt at the crossings and trail convergences.

    The conservation measures being taken are to have lead herds establish trails that others will follow.
    If the lead herds are turned or scatterd, then the Caribou go whichever way that happens to go.

    This isnt apparent to those who fly in and fly out, from and back to where ever, but it is to those that live nearby as well as those who hunt up that way from Kotzebue and beyond and rely on the Caribou as a resource, ad know them exceedingly well.

    Its a detriment to those who fly in to hunt , later in September, when the bulls meat AND antlers are 'Prime',......dosent matter who or where from, those who boat up, float through or walk it while Hunting Caribou after someone else has buzzed and herded the few Bulls among the lead Cows, scatterd them, so the Caribou are scatterd on many trails, insted of Huntable paths that will bring Caribou to those who do not know the lay of the land or river, especcially non-locals.

    Keeping traffic down while the lead herds pass and establish their trails is MORE productive to those who wait and hunt the end of September...........locals always let the first pass, no matter how bad they want to hunt, as more are sure to follow.

    I dont think the Park Servics charges Tresspass fees for Hunting.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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  18. #38

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    I call BS on 11,000 visitors last year. Those are fabricated numbers to justify an unjustifable job! When I helped a couple transporters fight the 1 caribou limit a few years back the Park Service had those numbers and we laughed at them. They showed consistent numbers even when it was 40 below zero in January and February that a 1000 people were still using the preserve. What's the total count of people in that region leaving out people that can't physically access the Noatak? What did they do count one person 1000 times? They estimated the numbers in the winter according to the last superintendent and we said they inflated them two fold! Like I said before, sit back and let them take it all from you. This new superintendent guy, what does he have 6 months experience managing a Preserve in the Arctic? I heard he came from Hawaii!

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    IF there truly were a conservation concern then the NPS would restrict all hunting until the old cow led the group down the primrose path.

    But, the Superintendent apparently thinks people using their own airplanes wont shoot the lead cows...and of course the "locals" would never shoot the lead cows...but....people who rely on transporters...those are the ones causing the conservation concern.

    Stranger...the closure is a social engineering scheme plain and simple.

    And...ANILCA prohibits such closures...

  20. #40
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    I am still trying to figure out HOW, the NPS, can restrict hunting, state annimals durijng state seasons, with state bag limits....then i would like to know how they plan on restricting hunters from accessing the lands, they dont manage, then..i would like to see them stop hunting on the lands they do.


    then again.....there was a bunch of yahoo's scoffed at the mere notions of all this..just last month or so...NPS.. has one agenda these days.. and it is to end hunting....nation wide
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