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Thread: Confuzed and Bewildered

  1. #1

    Default Confuzed and Bewildered

    I have been reloading for a couple of months now, and I still have A LOT to learn but... the question I have concerns loading for the 300RUM and accuracy of my reloaded ammo.

    I loaded up a killer group with 180 gr Nosler ballistic tips and RL22, but I don't plan to hunt with that load. I have my heart set on using Barnes 200 grain FB x-bullets. The powder I hope to use is RL25, and maybe Retumbo in the future. I have cleaned the bore of my Remington 300RUM thoroughly before each trip to the range when I plan on using x-bullets. No copper fouling and my patches come out clean when I am done cleaning the rifle. And I let my rifle cool after each shot.

    I started with the minimum recommend powder charge from the Barnes manual while using the 200 grain FB x-bullet and RL25. I would load up three and go up half a grain and I did that until I reached 1 grain under max. Each group shot horrible. Scattered groups where the average. I also use a shoulder pad, rifle rest, and I can see the bullet hit the snow bank through the scope.

    I tried 200 grain Nosler partitions while using 7828ssc powder. The groups were even worse.

    Is it possible my rifle does not like 200 grain bullets? Maybe a 180 gr bullet shoots better out of the high velocity 300rum? Maybe I should try a different powder? maybe my rifle does not like this powderI find it odd I can shoot great groups with an 180 grain ballistic's tip but when I move up to a 200 grain big game bullet my groups scatter like buckshot. I am told all companies that produce factory ammunition have stopped production of 200 gr 300RUM ammo, and the max is 180 gr bullets. Could this be an indication of horrible performance of a 200 gr bullet in a 300rum? Any thoughts of where I should go from here?

  2. #2
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    Default call barnes

    I got a free barnes dvd just by calling them.

    It talks about barnes bullets having a critical load OAL to be set by your rifling and caliber.

    They really shine at a certain length off of the rifling yet go to pot if they are closer or farther away.

    Call and ask a tech, and also get the free video.

    jedi

  3. #3

    Default

    I have heard that the X bullets can be picky. I haven't had too many problems with them myself. The triple shocks are supposed to be less picky than the original design x bullets. Jedi is right, OAL is important. The best way to find it is pick a load and only vary the OAL and use the OAL that shoots the best. That can be a spendy proposition at around $.75 a shot though. There is a far outside chance that your barrel doesn't spin fast enough for a 200 grain bullet. I doubt it but it might be worth looking into. Trying a different powder is worth the effort. Try to see if some decent soft points will shoot well in that weight. Im partial to Hornady but others (Speer, Sierra) also make good bullets.

    I, personally, would try stablizing cheaper bullets of this weight before doing OAL testing with something as spendy as X-bullets.

  4. #4
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    Smile Bad Loads

    I have never loaded for a 300 RUM, but 200 gr bullets have been very finnicky in the 30-06's I have tried them in.

    Other things to consider are: The original Barnes X (not TSX) have a repuatation for being finnicky. The Nosler BT's have a reputation for not being to particular, and easy to get to shoot well.

    You could always go back to your BT load to verify your scope, bore, etc didnt go south, but I dont think thats likely. I think you just found some loads that your rifle didnt like, although I didnt see the groups.

    If the BT's shoot well, try the same weight in the Accubond. They are VERY similar in how they shoot, point of impact, etc.

  5. #5
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    Default

    WG,
    Lots of good advice so far from others, so I'll just endorse a couple of suggestions that have already been offered. First, the TSX's are so much better than the old X's, but they are longer than other bullets of the same weight. Longer bullets do require a faster twist rate to stabilize (as you probably alreay know). I've run into trouble with the X's for that very same reason, and had to back down to lighter (shorter) X's. Check out the holes in the target. Are they nice circles, or are they misshapen? Sometimes it is easier to tell by looking at the back of the target. I've actually had some X's key hole due to poor stabilization (.257 Roberts, 115 grn TSX, 1:10 twist). Second, the point about OAL being important with X's is right on. They do like to be further off the lands than other bullets. You'll want to be very precise with your OAL calculations and make sure you know the length to the lands for that particular bullet, then back it off to spec's suggested by Barnes. Lastly, to keep things simple I'd keep powder charges at the low end while you are working with the OAL until it's just right, then move charges up.
    This is all part of the fun....right.
    Doc

  6. #6
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Col 300 Rum

    Sounds like you need to adjust your COL and need a faster burning powder.......should be around 3.600" for the 180 Nosler BT......and IMR 4350 @ 80.0 should be the powder.

    200gr TSX @ 3.600" COL (Clean Bore good before using TSX)
    IMR 4350 @ 77.0
    Fed 215 GM Primers
    RP Cases
    Alaska

  7. #7

    Default 200 gr. X bullets

    I got the 200 grain X bullets to work for me in a .330 Win Mag, after several frustrating range sessions, by doing this. I seated the bullets out enough so that when I coated the bullets with black magic marker and then chambered it, ( a dummy round, no primer or powder) I saw rifling marks on the bullet. I then ran it in with the seater die about an eigth turn until I didn't see any more marks, then an eigth turn more on the seater stem. The groups dropped down to about 1 1/2 inches instead of 3 to four inches. One more loading session and another eigth turn got me right around 1 inch. I read, somewhere, that about .050" from the rifling was a good starting point. Hope this helps.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Gremlin View Post
    I have been reloading for a couple of months now, and I still have A LOT to learn but... the question I have concerns loading for the 300RUM and accuracy of my reloaded ammo.

    I loaded up a killer group with 180 gr Nosler ballistic tips and RL22, but I don't plan to hunt with that load. I have my heart set on using Barnes 200 grain FB x-bullets. The powder I hope to use is RL25, and maybe Retumbo in the future. I have cleaned the bore of my Remington 300RUM thoroughly before each trip to the range when I plan on using x-bullets. No copper fouling and my patches come out clean when I am done cleaning the rifle. And I let my rifle cool after each shot.

    I started with the minimum recommend powder charge from the Barnes manual while using the 200 grain FB x-bullet and RL25. I would load up three and go up half a grain and I did that until I reached 1 grain under max. Each group shot horrible. Scattered groups where the average. I also use a shoulder pad, rifle rest, and I can see the bullet hit the snow bank through the scope.

    I tried 200 grain Nosler partitions while using 7828ssc powder. The groups were even worse.

    Is it possible my rifle does not like 200 grain bullets? Maybe a 180 gr bullet shoots better out of the high velocity 300rum? Maybe I should try a different powder? maybe my rifle does not like this powderI find it odd I can shoot great groups with an 180 grain ballistic's tip but when I move up to a 200 grain big game bullet my groups scatter like buckshot. I am told all companies that produce factory ammunition have stopped production of 200 gr 300RUM ammo, and the max is 180 gr bullets. Could this be an indication of horrible performance of a 200 gr bullet in a 300rum? Any thoughts of where I should go from here?
    Couple things here. Half grain step in powder for this monster case will not do anything. The velocity difference will be less than the SD for velocity. You are seeing the bullet impact!? Is there a brake on the rifle? If not I don't know what to think of it. Have you shot this rifle well before this session? What do you mean a rifle rest? A mechanical gizzmo?

    I have loaded for about a dozen new Remington rifles in 300 RUM, all of them shot RL-25 and 200grain bullets very well. It isn't possible to be a twist issue. I need more info here but sense I don't have enough I will say it is the shooter. Sorry! That's the most common cause for all of the "accuracy problems". Tell me what you can do and what is really going on here.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  9. #9

    Default

    Let me specify the X bullets I am using are the tripple shocks, sorry for the confusion. My COAL is 3.6". Much longer and the reloaded bullets will not fit in the magazine. The bullet holes in the paper look nice and round too. The rifle rest is a benchmaster. Nothing clamps the gun to the rifle rest, and my shoulder can't tell a difference in recoil with or without the gizzmo. I do not have a brake on the rifle. By saying I can see the bullet hit the snow bank I was trying to convey I am not flinching really bad.

    I am not so much worried about velocity with this rifle, I just want an accurate round with the 200gr TSX bullets to hunt with. If for whatever reason 300rum's are generally more accurate with an 180gr TSX I would know before I buy a new box of these really expensive bullets. So by starting at the minimum charge according to the Barnes manual, loading three rounds with that charge, and working my way up to max by half a grain I will not see a gradual change in accuracy? I thought that is how someone went about finding the right load for their rifle. With the large magnum case should I vary the powder charges by 1 grain instead?

    I used the BT to sight in the scope, and at the end of the range session I shot the group pictured below. This target was at 100 yards. Not being able to even come close to duplicate that kind of group with 200 grain partitions or 200gr TSX bullets I couldnt help but wonder if a 180 grain bullet was the way to go.


  10. #10

    Default

    I have used the 180 grain TSX in my 300RUM and I have had good results. I feel that for most animals that I am going to take, 180 grain bullets are more than adequate. I use H4831SC with the TSX and it is doing good. All my shooting has been off a lead sled with load development. the first time I loaded the TSX, the first 3 shots were almost touching....(2 were and the third was about the width of the bullet away from the other 2)

  11. #11
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    Default

    [/quote]

    You actually shot better than your claiming with the 0.876" showing.

    You measure the 2 farthest apart bullet holes from inside edge of 1 to outside edge of the other,which equals center to center.

    Or you measure as you did then subtract caliber 0.876"-0.308"=0.568"

    So you actually shot a 0.568" group.

    There are a million variance combo's for 200 grainers....hang in there...

    I still say call Barnes and ask about OAL and what they recommend for a .300RUM as far as powder and such...those guys are dying to help people...they love to see people get a good load to hunt with...and it's good for sales and buisness.

    jedi

  12. #12

    Default

    I load 200gr Accubonds ahead of 87gr of 7828 which results in 3/4" groups all day long out of my Winchester mod 70 stainless.

  13. #13

    Default

    I plan to try two other powders, RL22 and 7828. If that does not result in a decent group I think I will be switch my focus to partitions.

  14. #14

    Default

    X bullets are long for bullet weight anyway because they've got no lead. You might not be able to stablized them properly when other 200s might.

    Try a powder that has at least 95% of the case filled. I have run into problems where my cases were only 75-80% full not shooting as well as powders that filled the case better.

    What kind of primers are you using. If the huge charge you're torching off with the RUM you might not be getting consistant ignition. If you're using 215s maybe try 215Ms or switch to CCI 250s or Rem 7 1/2s, they are all supposed to be hotter.

    The problem might be related to barrel harmonics. I know limbsaver is making a little rubber gizmo that is supposed to dampen higher order harmonics in the barrel, this might help you out a bit. Also try the old ripped up business cards at the end of the stock trick and see if your groups tighten up. If they do pillar bedding may be the answer for 200s.

    Do you have a chrony? It can make life easier. If you have tight exterme spreads and low standard deviation and you are all over the place it's probably not the primer/powder/bullet combo. If you're es and std-dev are both high then you've got some ignition related problems, and maybe still some gun problems. In any event they are worth the purchase price.

    The only other thing I can think of is try the different seating depths with the range that will fit in your magazine.

    Have you tried shooting the 180s again? See if you can get good groups. If not you might have rattled loose scope or mounts. Your scope might have gone south on you as well.

  15. #15

    Default reloading the RUM

    I have found that with my 300RUM the 200 grain NP and IMR 7828 work great together. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know what the speeds are but I use 75gr and consistently shoot .5" groups at 100 yds. I haven't tried the any of the barnes bullets so I really can't help there other than barnes are critical for OAL.

    I also use the 200gr NP in my 300WM and they shoot right on the money as well.

    Good Luck
    RIDE TALL, SHOOT STRAIGHT AND ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH

  16. #16
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sarge View Post
    I have found that with my 300RUM the 200 grain NP and IMR 7828 work great together. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know what the speeds are but I use 75gr and consistently shoot .5" groups at 100 yds. I haven't tried the any of the barnes bullets so I really can't help there other than barnes are critical for OAL.

    I also use the 200gr NP in my 300WM and they shoot right on the money as well.

    Good Luck
    Sarge,

    Don't you mean 85.0 grains with the 200 PT? 75 grains of 7828 is a very low charge weight for the 300 RUM, 85 grains would give about 3000 fps with the 200 grain bullet. IMR-7828 loads about the same as RL-22 (approximate burning rate) but RL-22 will achieve higher velocities at equal pressure and accuracy. It is very hard to fill this big case and powders that fill closer to the top don't generally produce top accuracy. (MagPro & Retumbo) RL-25 is also tops for 200 grainers.

    This caliber is one of those capable of great zapping velocity and custom made for the Barnes solid copper bullets, unfortunately I have never got a group smaller then 2" with the Barnes bullets at any velocity or seating depth from this caliber.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beer:30 View Post
    X bullets are long for bullet weight anyway because they've got no lead. You might not be able to stablized them properly when other 200s might.

    Try a powder that has at least 95% of the case filled. I have run into problems where my cases were only 75-80% full not shooting as well as powders that filled the case better.

    What kind of primers are you using. If the huge charge you're torching off with the RUM you might not be getting consistant ignition. If you're using 215s maybe try 215Ms or switch to CCI 250s or Rem 7 1/2s, they are all supposed to be hotter.

    The problem might be related to barrel harmonics. I know limbsaver is making a little rubber gizmo that is supposed to dampen higher order harmonics in the barrel, this might help you out a bit. Also try the old ripped up business cards at the end of the stock trick and see if your groups tighten up. If they do pillar bedding may be the answer for 200s.

    Do you have a chrony? It can make life easier. If you have tight exterme spreads and low standard deviation and you are all over the place it's probably not the primer/powder/bullet combo. If you're es and std-dev are both high then you've got some ignition related problems, and maybe still some gun problems. In any event they are worth the purchase price.

    The only other thing I can think of is try the different seating depths with the range that will fit in your magazine.

    Have you tried shooting the 180s again? See if you can get good groups. If not you might have rattled loose scope or mounts. Your scope might have gone south on you as well.
    This is an informative thread, lots of good info here. I would like to point out one minor correction if I may. The Remington #71/2 primer is their small rifle primer it is also their small pistol magnum. It works well in my 454, calling for SR primers. I think the Large rifle primer is the #91/2 and they have an 'M' version of that. I don't consider it very hot either. The standard nine is my preferred primer for straight walled cases that operate in the 35-45,000 psi range with fast burning rifle powder. For me, the most consistant velocities from the RUM has been with 215 or 215 M (match grade) primers.

    You are right about the velocity spread and standard deviation numbers from a chronograph. That can determine accuracy. I always chrony first and only accuracy test loads for accuracy after I see the SD numbers. I have chronographed for over 25 years and found that all accurate loads have low SD numbers. I've seen some low SD numbers that didn't produce good accuracy but that is rare and never the other way around, In other words I don't get good accuracy with wide variations in velocity.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  18. #18

    Default 300 RUM loads

    It would be interesting to know what load you are using. Alliant shows 81grs of RL 25, with the 200gr X bullet. I think with that load, you are not going to see the bullet hit the bank, through your scope as recoil would be pretty heavy. IF you are using something like a lead sled or other shooting rest that prevents the rifle from recoiling normally, it will effect your groups, just as will having the BARREL touching anything solid. In fact, not a good idea to have the barrel touching anything, even a sand bag, as it will tend to recoil away from whatever it's touching. As suggested, change the distance your bullet is off the rifling, and also primers. There is a big difference in how a load acts, with a change in primers.

    I hate to say this, but seems like a waste to use the 300Rum when the 300Win Mag and 300Wby will equal it if using the RL powder. Might do better with some other powder. The 300Wby load is shown as being the same as the one listed for the 300RUM, but the RUM case holds over a 100grs of powder, so lots of empty space there. I think going to H1000, or something slower, would give better results. 4350 really too fast for the 300RUM, and would not give best velocity. Might work, but will not be optimum.

  19. #19

    Default Retumbo and H870

    I've found that in my 300RUM H870 (102-106 grns.) and retumbo (94-96 grns.) has given me MOA or less with Nosler AB, part, trophy bonded bear claws, and speers. H870 consistently gives between 3180 and 3260 depending on the bullet and load combination. Retumbo generally gives from the low 3100's to the high 3100's depending on the load and bullet combo. Both of these powders will come closer to filling the case which may help with accuracy. The 200 grain factory nosler typically clocked in the mid to high 3100's in my rifle and accuracy was sub MOA. I've also found that this paticular rifle shoots best when the bullet is close to the lands. Normally about 3.63 OAL. This still feeds perfect in my 700.

    just my personal experience.

  20. #20

    Default

    Two powders I want to try are Retumbo and Magnum.

    I went to the range today. Here are the loads and groups they produced at 100 yards in the order of loads shot. All loads are COAL 3.6"

    82gr RL25
    200gr Barnes Triple Shock
    3 shot group: 1.375"

    83.5gr 7828
    200gr Nosler Partition
    3 shot group: 1.9"

    84.5gr 7828
    200gr Nosler Partition
    3 shot group: 2.5"

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