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Thread: New owner, which 2 stroke oil?

  1. #1

    Default New owner, which 2 stroke oil?

    Hi, just bought my first snow machine, a 1997 Tundra II, thought it would be a good starter machine for me.
    Which 2 stroke would you recommend? Is there a disadvantage to the synthetic 2 stroke oil? And at what ratio should I run?

    Thanks
    Robert
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  2. #2
    Member Dirtofak's Avatar
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    Run the SkiDoo oil. $16.00 a gallon if you take your own jug to AMDS. I have and still use the factory oil pump so if you mix your own ask the service dept.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I've heard some of the synthetics don't stick that well to metal. Fine during operation, but during storage if the crank, bearings and rod don't have a coating of oil on them they will rust and rusted bearings will fail which makes for a very expensive repair. I've been running chevron snogo oil that I got at Costco in my Tundra and Skandic.

    I've heard recomendations of anywhere between 40:1 and 50:1 for pre-mix. Also some people recomend running 100:1 even when using the oil injection pump. It's insurance against the pump failing and grenading the engine.

    Tundra's are very capable machines. I'm amazed at some of the areas I've been able to run our 91 tundra lt. It may not be fast, but it'll run through waste deep snow and since it's light it's fairly easy to get it unstuck.

    I'd recomend checking the carburator boot for cracks. They do crack over time and a cracked carb boot can provide enough of an air leak to cause the engine to run lean enough to melt the piston. Also check the slides in the skid for wear and the bearings in the idler wheels to make sure they move freely.
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  4. #4

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    Thanks for the information. I have no idea the things to look for or check on a snow machine, so any information is valuable to me.

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    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    Do NOT run your Tundra at 50:1 if you have the injector removed. More like 20:1 is what's required. The Tundras have a variable rate oil feed pump. The higher the RPM's, the more oil it injects.
    At idle they run about 50:1....however at WOT the run about 20:1.
    So, to keep an older tundra (with oil pump removed) from leaning out, mix 5 gallons of gas to a quart of oil.
    Paul- Don't know where you got your synthetic info from regarding it not sticking to metal, but with Amsoil that is incorrect.
    Been running the stuff in everything for a long time and NEVER had any issues. In fact, that is one of the claims of a synthetic, it sticks/coats/lubricates better than oil.
    If you have any questions about your Tundra, call or stop by "Older Snowmachine repairs" on Wasilla Fishook and speak with John Milke the owner.
    (Take your machine over at the end of season and have him check it over....he's GOOD and very reasonable. Plus he'll chat for free and give you lots of advice.)
    BK

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    Member Bsj425's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtofak View Post
    Run the SkiDoo oil. $16.00 a gallon if you take your own jug to AMDS. I have and still use the factory oil pump so if you mix your own ask the service dept.
    Really compeaus charges 42 dollars a gallon on a refill and its around 50 for a new jug *** we are getting hosed up here.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Running oil 20:1 premix is going to foul plugs, and likely require the carb to be rejetted as the engine will be running leaner. I like to err slighty on the side of more oil than less oil, but 20:1 is way too much oil.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkmail View Post
    Do NOT run your Tundra at 50:1 if you have the injector removed. More like 20:1 is what's required. The Tundras have a variable rate oil feed pump. The higher the RPM's, the more oil it injects.
    At idle they run about 50:1....however at WOT the run about 20:1.
    I always ran my Tundra's at 50:1 premix with Amsoil and never had an issue.
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    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    Plugs are cheap and easy to replace IF they foul. A new motor is not and you will be hoofing it when she burns down.
    To each his own, just trying to educate the new Tundra owner.
    I also run Amsoil, never any issues and my Tundra does NOT foul plugs. She might smoke a little more while warming up for a minute but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
    Also-Do not run the new high dollar Ski-Doo oils in the older Tundras according to John Milke at Older Snow repair as he has had several customers bring their burned up machines to him shortly after they swithced to the latest Ski-Doo oils made for the bigger HP machines.
    My thoughts...
    BK

  10. #10
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Are you runing Amsoil at 20:1 pre-mix, or using the oil injection? I can almost gurantee that if you're using the oil injection pump that you aren't running anywhere near 20:1, more like 45:1. Yes, the pump does deliver more oil at higher rpm, just as running pre-mix delivers more oil at higher rpm, more fuel at higher rpm, more oil.

    Engines burn down from being run too lean, they stick and have bearing failure from insufficient oil. Mixing oils in an oil injection system can cause a problem with the oil injection system getting clogged if the oils aren't compatable with eachother. Always a good idea to check the filter and make sure the pump is working. Also if you clean out the oil injection system, make sure you prime it as air bubbles will make the engine run w/o oil for a short time.

    The fan cooled rotax engines used by skidoo are generally very well built engines that aren't that finicky and will run reliably for many many miles. As with all two strokes, they can be killed by being run too lean, either from a carb that is incorrectly setup or from an air leak, or they can stick a piston and/or have bearing failure from lack of lube.

    One last thought, if one has a sno-go with oil injection and decides to go to pre-mix, you need to jet the carb richer. You have effectively leaned out the engine by replacing part of the fuel that the carb meters with oil.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Moderator bkmail's Avatar
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    Injection was gone when I bought it a couple years ago, so it is premix only. I was running Amsoil at 50:1 till I talked to Older Snow repair. He warned me that if I ran it at higher RPM's and especially for longer durations I would burn it down sooner or later. Thus I took his advice and have been mixing it as stated above.
    Appreciate the education Paul! BTW-How did your overhaul go on your machine? Did you get her put back together yet?
    BK

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I got the skandic back together a couple of weeks ago and managed to ride it a few times. I need to look at the carbs and check the engine for air leaks as on the last ride I had a problem with it bogging, which cleared up after running it for awhile, and then I had a problem with the engine loading up and fouling plugs when getting it into the truck. But I was pretty impressed with the ride and the power of the 500 fan engine.

    The tundra runs great, I changed the oil in the chaincase but other then that it runs like a champ.

    I also picked up a 198? yamaha 340 enticer. The guy advertised it on craigslist for $100 and said the stator was bad, also missing the throttle lever. I found a used throttle lever off of ebay for $20, and some googling yielded the resistance values for the coils in the stator. I checked the coils and the only one the was bad was the one that charges the CDI box. More googling yielded that Parts Reloaded had the best price on factory coils, so $20 later I had a new coil. I bolted everything together, pulled it into the driveway, choke on and pulled it over about 5 times before it fired. So $140 total for a running machine.

    I've been on the slope the last week and 1/2 so haven't a chance to do any more riding.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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    Member Arcticmayhem's Avatar
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    50:1 is just right to mix your gas. Especially on an old air cooled engine. Anybody who tells you otherwise just wants to sell you more oil and plugs. Air cooled engines have much looser tolerances than liquid cooled engines and make less HP per cc. That means that internal pressures and stresses are less. For an old tundra engine, as long as all of the internal parts stay coated with oil, it will last forever. Even the race sleds running 120+ hp in their 440s only mix as thick as 32:1.

    You can use any TC-W3 oil out there, but some oils will be overkill for your application, and some will be leaving you unprotected. I run Ski-Doo full synthetic and have never had a problem, but I run my 800 really hard, so it needs all the protection it can get. $40+ per gallon is worth it if it saves my engine. Any standard snowmachine 2 cycle mineral oil will work for your application. I also really like Amsoil products and have friends who run it exclusively. It can be harder to find sometimes though. Be careful when mixing different types of oil. I have heard from some people that different types don't always "get along" and can clog injectors.

    The reason that some engines will lock up after running high rpm for a long time is usually an over-heat or lean condition (lean usually just melts the piston). Using cheap oil can contribute to overheating because it just doesn't lubricate as well, and can break down at high temperatures. It also can gel at low temperatures, so be careful when using outboard motor oil designed for temps above freezing in snowmachines. Cheaper oils can also leave ash deposits in your cylinders. Ash insulates the combustion chamber, making it difficult to dissipate heat, and making hot spots for detonation.

    2 cycle oil has a hard job. It has to have a high film strength to avoid metal to metal contact in high pressure/temperature areas like connecting rod bearings. It also has to flow and meter consistently in temperatures from -50 up to +50. It has to mix well with fuel and burn completely without leaving any ash or residue in combustion chambers ranging from 7:1 to 12:1 compression ratios. It is a tough job, and most cheap oils fall short in one or more of these areas.

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    I know this thread has probably died and gone to the waste side, but amsoil did a pretty impressive study comparing the XPS ski-doo oil to Amsoil, and it's well worth the read.

    http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G3039.pdf

  15. #15

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    What's really sad is BRP feels that the life of a snowmachine is 300 hrs (that's around a 1000 miles). I know some people with older machines with 3 and 4 times that many miles on theirs. Shows pride in workmanship; I guess BRP has started building "BIC" machines, use'em and throw'em away.
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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    What's really sad is BRP feels that the life of a snowmachine is 300 hrs (that's around a 1000 miles). I know some people with older machines with 3 and 4 times that many miles on theirs. Shows pride in workmanship; I guess BRP has started building "BIC" machines, use'em and throw'em away.
    That is odd! I Know my Skidoos will have way more than that before I retire them.
    Where do you come up with 300 hours = 1,000 miles? I know even on my old 99 tundra I averaged quite a bit higher than 3.3 mph.
    I do use factory oil in all my machines. Why not? I don't burn nearly as much oil as some of you guys do but it really isn't that big of a price difference. That and knowing that I will not have oil related problems is peace of mind for me.
    How much oil do you guys burn a year and how much do you really save running other brands of oil?
    I run the mineral oil in my 08,99,and 94 2 stroke skidoos. Thats what was recommended for them so thats what I use.
    My 4 stroke 600 ACE machine is recommended to have the synthetic and I would guess thats what they put in it when I take it in for it's yearly service.
    I don't think any of the manufacturers make "Bic machines" Although every manufacturer makes a lemon every now and then.
    Last year it wasn't Skidoo but there were a few machines catching fire and having other major problems that led to a few recalls.
    My 2011 600 ACE had to be boroscoped due to an issue with a bolt that was potentially too long causing problems but mine did not have any issues found and hasn't had any since(other than my own fault).


    I run Ski Doo XPS mineral oil at 50:1 in my 99 Tundra with no issues at that ratio.
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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    What's really sad is BRP feels that the life of a snowmachine is 300 hrs (that's around a 1000 miles). I know some people with older machines with 3 and 4 times that many miles on theirs. Shows pride in workmanship; I guess BRP has started building "BIC" machines, use'em and throw'em away.
    To say doo's are built less robustly than their competition is at best a one of those brand loyalty barbs, and as Chris alludes, 300hr is going to equal more like 10,000 miles assuming an average speed of 33 mph.

    As an engineer it's really simple to design a snowmachine that will last longer. You simply increase the thickness of aluminum used in the tub, you increase the wall thickness of the tubing used in the front suspension, you increase the dia of the bolts, and you detune the engine or increase the displacement of the engine for the same hp.

    Oh wait, suddenly the customers won't buy our product because the beefed up product cost more, weighs more and goes slower.

    There is a big profitable market for 150+hp mountain sleds and many owners sell them when they want the latest and greatest vs. when they've worn them out.

    I'd say skidoo is doing a fine job of addressing their customers wants, and I'm more than happy to get a used sled with 2-4,000 miles that is a few years old and 1/5 the cost of a new one. Maybe I have to spend a few evening replacing the bearings and hyfax in the skid and maybe the engine needs a new top end.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

    If you have a tenuous grasp of reality, Alaska is not for you.

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