Too much HP for a HB?
I'm getting more excited as spring approaches to go and get my HB. I am still wondering if anybody knew at what point how much horsepower on the back would become redundent or not enough? I'm trying to do my due diligence on the net with reasearch into displacement and semi-displacement hull speed and HP but I'm begining to realize that freighter canoe's somewhat fall into their own category.
Has anybody out there had any experience using a 15hp and a 30hp on the HB and made obsevations on speed, fuel effeciency vs engine weight etc?
Just rather curious in knowing. I am going with the 23hp MB mini as that is what seems to be standard. Just was hoping for some tid bits of knowledge on the subject.
I run a 15hp 4-stroke honda with a lift and can only run at about 3/4 throttle even with a full load. Seems to be plenty of hp for my needs. I don't have much experience on longer trips but for the portaging I do, the lighter 15 suits my needs and sips gas. I can push a pretty good load up a moderate current just fine.
I run a Honda 20HP 4 Stroke and having the extra power is appreciated in fast water. I have had it full out and the boat still handles well. I started using an 8HP and it wasn't enough motor,,,,had it full throttle most of the time. 15HP would be a good minimum. Much over 20HP would be too much IMO. Not sure how the surface drives would differ,
Agreed....20hp is where it's at......especially if fighting current.
I ran a 20hp honda on mine,was close to perfect.With 2 guys and a moose it isnt quick in the fast water but gets the job done
I'm shorter, but...
My Scott Albany is shorter than an HB, and I can tell you that my 4stroke 15HP motor is probably 5 percent too heavy - the bow rises, so I load lots of weight up front), but I manage anyway just fine and would not choose any other now, in retrospect. Even with a motor "too heavy" I've run in heavy seas, high waves, and overloaded, and its never been the least bit tippy.
I've even sat on top of my OB during operation before.
I see a lot of 20 HP 4 stroke's on HB's.
Scott recommends a max of 9 or 10 HP for my boat. Not sure about yours.
Ibow, I have to laugh when I see how fast a motor has become "standard". I was the first person to have a surface
drive on a freighter canoe in Alaska. A mud buddy 18 hp. And that was only 4 years ago. There was lots of skepticism at
first but as the motor seems to becoming "standard" I guess my preachiness has made some coverts. I used a 15 hp
outboard for 16 years. It was fine. I personally think the 23 hp is overkill. The 18 is perfect.
I'm with yah on that one. There's still room for fuel economy when it comes to freighter canoes, that's why we run them. I'm betting your 18 has the power of a 25 horse traditional style ouboard, but the fuel economy of a 15 horse.
I'll be testing the 18 copperhead on my 22 ft. canoe this summer, and will recommend it first and foremost, as the preferred motor size for my up-coming 22ft. models.
I'm behind all of yas in the horesepower rating on my 18 ft. model, will always run a 12 horse Copperhead for that rig. Oyster gorgeous canoe project (make sure to check out that thread) is about the same width as my canoe, but with the extra two foot of length, and more rounded shape, he'd probably run more efficiently than mine. I'd probably go for a 15 horse suzuki fourstroke outboard if I were him, if not, than a copperhead 12 for sure. Anything more might be overkill.
That little gem of a Suzuki motor only weighs 97 lbs. It's a new model. The copperhead 12 hp is 120 lbs, but more centered over the top of the transom, those are my recommendations because fuel efficiency is everything.
For the Hudson bay, an 18 hp surface drive is about ideal. fuel efficiency still matter with the bigger canoes too.
Ibow has stated though,
that he lives on one of the fastest river in his area. It's def. OK to address concerns of enough power when dealing with fast water.
This thread reminds me of the discussions we've had on here about the proper horsepower outboard on the ubiquitous 19' Grummans. The "plate" on the 19'er recommends 5 hp. Some users say a 9.9, others say a 15 horse is preferable. They all work ... it's up to the preference of the owner. And the 15s work great, as do the 9.9s. The extra power is only useful when you need it. Otherwise, no need to run at full throttle.
As for the MBMini18 and 23 ... it's the same B&S/Vanguard power head, with a small differences in displacement. They are the same engine and weigh the same. Ask those who have experience with the MBMini 23 if that motor hotrods or over powers their HB. To my mind and use, it doesn't anymore than a 15 hp 2-stroke motor on a 19'er over powered that boat. I talked with a factory engineer at Grumman/Marathon Boat Group about the removal of the center seat for more cargo space. (He said don't do it, it's structural for the hull.) He asked what motor I had on my Grumman. When I replied a 79# Yamaha 15 horse, he was appalled, and said so. He'd never tried such a combo and saw no need for it. But many of us do.
There are 4 MBMinis on HBs, that I know of, here in the Fairbanks area ... an 18 and 3 - 23s. Perhaps there are others. They're efficient, reliable, and Alaska proven. Choose the hp you prefer. They'll both work, but in some situations, more power can be an asset. IMHO.
By the way, I'm not selling anything. My opinion is here for information only.
PS ... We all owe kandik a vote of thanks for originally bringing surface-drive motors to our attention. They are an outstanding addition to the use and utility of our large freighter canoes.
When I was hunting the Wood River in the 90's had a native from Nenana come up to our camp with a Mud Buddie on his flat bottom boat...
Only problem was he didn't have the power to pull a moose out of a slough he went up. I don't remember the horsepower, but he took a flatbottom boat all the way to the Lake on Tokaket slough. Seen him, I had to walk in.
Thanks for all the replies!
It's been really helpful to hear all this. As for "standard" I should have been more clear I was typing and thinking seperately lol.What I meant to say is that it seems that most people and not only on this Forum use close to 20hp on their H.B.
The reason I posed this question is that it seems here, where I am, people seem to slightly OVER power their rigs to give them that extra push through fast water rapids etc. So, I was curious to know if other's did the same on a HB or Albany.
I'm a little worried, as I've been warned, that the Stikine will be too fast in places at times to make the HB/SD practical but I'm willing to give it a try. I'm not worried about going 30 miles an hour up river burning 8 gallons an hour just to be fast. I am, however, worried that I won't make it at all! The only video I've seen of a SD on a freighter is the one of Mainer in Ak posted (great clip!) but that was on a creek of sorts. Rick then posted that a HB/SD owner on the Copper river managed just fine in what might be a 15mph section. So I'm gambling on that.
Worst case scenario is that there will be basicaly new HB with a MB mini 23 for sale next year free delivery to Whitehorse lol. It's a risk I'm prepared to take because from what I've been reading it seems to be the best comprimise to getting 2 boats as I've been suggested to do.
As for Kandik and his "preachiness" YES, it was that "famous" post that I somehow bumbled on to on the interweb which brought me to this forum and eventually to consider the HB/SD setup and then after more reading and asking questions to purchase, sight unseen, a HB&SD. However, if the 18 and 23 are the same weight I can't see how the 23 is overkill in my particular situation of dealing with lots of fast water so I'm going with that.
Again thanks for the responses and I hope by Fall I'll be able to post video or attachments on this forum and will be able to contribute to this thread constructively.
Good luck with your rig, Ibow. You'll have a great time learning the capabilities of your HB/MB. I'm certain you'll be able to give us plenty of actual hardcore user experience to add to the wealth of information on this forum. If you somehow have internet at your bush location, keep us informed.
Talk to Clint Hovey at MB. He's a great guy, and they give outstanding service.
MudBuddy wasn't producing S-D motors in the 90's, but made "longtails". The S-Ds came along around 2000 or a little later. The MBMinis were introduced in 2006. I imagine what you watched was a "longtail." I never heard of S-Ds or MudBuddy until kandik wrote his seminal post about 3 years ago. The S-Ds are a more advanced and efficient beast than the "longtails." Some of the larger, heavier S-Ds have 50 or more horsepower. (By the way, I'm not selling anything. Just adding my opinion.)
Hello again Ibow, just got back from a winter camping trip. I just wanted to let yah know that there is a substantial weight difference between the two motors. The copperhead 18 weighs 135 lbs. The Mud buddy mini weighs 165 lbs and the neutral clutch may add a bit more weight onto that. The mud buddy mini is about $400 dollars more. The block is indeed the same, but the 18 horse has a smaller carb, and less bore, but looses less in the torque department with the 5 hp difference. Both motors have a 2.76 stroke, but the 18 hp vanguard has about .14 smaller bore size. With the way copperhead gears their motors, this set up won't be no slouch, and like said before, I'll be testing it on my upcoming 22 ft.x 60in. wide freighter canoes. The fuel consumption numbers will be different between the two motors.
Originally Posted by Ibow
round here, that extra $400 could be used towards over 100 gallons of gas. The extra weight savings between the two motors would be a 6 gallon marine tank of extra gas aboard the boat.
Hey Ibow ...
Just a note to clear up some possible confusion. The MBMini 23 weighs 166#, and is quite heavy duty, for an aluminum framed motor. They have been available since 2006, and are proven by a number of serious Alaskan users. The de-bugging is through. The neutral clutch (electronic) adds as much as 25# to the weight. I deleted the clutch from my motor which makes it simpler and saves that 25#. If you delete the clutch from your order, they delete $200 from the cost, a nice savings. Then the system is direct-drive. Very simple. Instead of hitting the neutral switch, you simply push down on the handle and the prop is out of the water. Works for me.
An 18 horse version can't effectively utilize the 12.25"x10 - Big Blade prop ... it takes more power to spin it. The 23 can, and, I understand, the Big Blade comes standard on the new MBMini23s. That prop is said to give a boost to both low end and top end power, particularly useful with big loads or strong currents. I have both an 11X10, on my MB now, and a Big Blade in reserve that will go on when I reassemble my rig after breakup. Fuel usage with my HB/MBMini23 on a 116 mile trip running at approx. 17 mph on average, was 8 gallons. I was pleased, and my motor is only starting to get broken in. I can't speak for other users.
By the way, there are quite a number of different brands of S-D motors besides MudBuddy ... Bog Hog Mud Motors, Go-Devil, Orion Outboards, Pro-Drive, Gator-Tail Outboards, as well as others I haven't come across yet on the internet, and, of course, a newer firm called Copperhead. Take your pick.
By the way, I'm not selling anything. This is simply my opinion and experience with the HB/MBMini23. I hate to see misinformation presented as fact. Good luck to you, partner.