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Thread: who copied who over the years?

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    Default who copied who over the years?

    In trying to understand who was the industry leaders in their time (of the big four), and who were the copy cats, does anyone have observations?

    I remember in the 80's Polaris dominated the front suspension with their Independent Trailing Arm Suspesnion, for many years........ Ski Doo copied it and Yamaha Copied it.

    In the early 90's, Arctic Cat came into the scene with the first double wishbone front suspension, and now.....everybody has practically copied it. I'm referring the general upper and lower a-arm type suspension.

    What I don't understand, is the pogo type front suspensions. Who copied who? I remember Yamaha had the first type of pogo suspension I had seen, but who copied who? Yamaha or Ski doo?

    Could it be said that Polaris and Arctic Cat have always been the trend setters that everyone else followed?

    Now, Polaris has the entirely new rear suspension, do you think everyone else will copy it?

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    I think Bombardier developed the first rubberized track driven by a cogged wheel, and once engine technology advanced to the point that a single passenger machine driven by a rubberized belt could be built, Bombardier was the first to do that too. I don't think the other "big 3" even existed yet at that point...
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    Member mmusashi2k's Avatar
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    Let's see. Bombardier came up with the REV chassis with the lightweight, rider forward design that is copied by all now and has lately come up with the 2 stroke ETEC motor which at 800 cc makes 160 hp out of the box and gets twice the gas mileage as Polaris or Cat while being quieter and cleaner.
    If anything is going to happen, it'll happen out there.

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    Member EagleRiverDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Now, Polaris has the entirely new rear suspension, do you think everyone else will copy it?
    I'm not going to get into the brand bashing which is sure to occur but in answer to this, no- I don't think everyone is going to copy Polaris' rear suspension idea because most riders ride standing up now. Getting all riders to go back to sitting down is unlikely because you have more control in most situations when standing. It might be popular with the trail crowd, but I just don't see boondockers and mountain riders ever going back to sitting down when riding.
    "If snowmachiners would adopt the habits of riding one at a time and not parking at the base of avalanche prone slopes, the number of fatalities would likely be whittled by at least a third, if not by half." ~ Jill Fredston, in the book Snowstruck, In The Grip Of Avalanches.

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    YesI do believe as Iofthetiaga said Joseph Armand Bombardier made the first commercially available "snomobile".
    Originally named the Ski-Dog but due to a newspaper or magazine misprint it became Ski Doo and the name stuck.
    Also Arctic Cat is a Direct descendant of Polaris. Two brothers Allan and Edgar heteen founded Polaris industries.
    Edgar got in a dispute with his brother and left the business to later start his own "Snowmobile " manufacturing company Arctic Cat.
    Here is an interesting arcticle for you Mainer it is from December of last year so fairly recent.I guess Arctic Cat has been doing some copying of their own.
    http://www.trfradio.com/2011/12/16/s...es-arctic-cat/
    I think what really matters is witch of the big four comsumers want to buy and witch they buy most often.
    Skidoo has held the market share since 2003 and the others are still playing catch up.
    It doesn't matter how many races you win or how fast your sleds can go if you don't make a good sled that lots of people are buying then it really doesn't matter.
    Those Irondog winning sleds would not be my choice to tow my icefishing gear to the lake or taking me up resurrection pass this weekend camping at the cabin I rented.
    Lots of people liked some of the old brands( Johnson,scorpion,John Deere,etc.) but they went out of business so they don't really matter anymore to current snomachine buyers.
    Ski Doo had a radically new suspension this season. Might polaris be trying to come up with a new suspension of their own in response?
    It could be said that ever since Joseph Armand Bombardier built his first Snow traveling machine in Valcourt Canada with an airplane propeller powered machine on Ski's when he was just 15 years old in 1932 everyone else has been copying him.
    Just my $.02
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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I think you could say that the front suspension designs copied automotive technology, but with a signifigant lag time. The original leaf spring designs really were following horse buggy suspensions :O
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    Member mjm316's Avatar
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    Believe it or not its not so much "copying" but trading technology. The big 4 have been doing it for yrs
    Polaris and Ski doo seem to do quite alot
    Tomorrow isn't promised. "Never delay kissing a pretty girl or opening a bottle of whiskey." E. Hemingway

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    Member mmusashi2k's Avatar
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    My younger brothers, who both live in WA, call all snowmachines "skidoo's" as we always did while growing up in Wyoming, just like everyone else. Whatever the case, they are all great sleds and I would take a Polaris or a Cat any day. And yes, they do seem to "trade" technology which is what brings us to the incredible sleds we have today. I can't wait to see what they evolve into in another 10 years, if they still allow us to ride them till then.
    If anything is going to happen, it'll happen out there.

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    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    Now, Polaris has the entirely new rear suspension, do you think everyone else will copy it?
    Are you talking about the rear suspension on the RMK's? If so Polaris did not come up with that they took the design from Holz Racing products an aftermarket manufacturer that came up with it years ago.

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    I believe Arctic Cat started the slide rail suspension which replaced the bogey wheels and was a big step forward. Some of the technology of the companies was stolen along the way, I seem to recall one of the 4 losing a law suit over fuel injection.

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    It is in each Corps best interest that the competition remain, but remain few. Industrial Espianoge I alive and well in every facet of production. A marketing ploy that plays well. Consumers want three or for "choices" but industry has now learned to not overwhelm the consumer with too many "choices", lest they become overwhelmed and unable to make a choice...and not make the purchase. The narrower the "choices", the greater the intrique and sense of urgency to buy.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member greythorn3's Avatar
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    it dont really matter because arctic cats are the best anyhow. friends dont let friends buy ski-donts. ski-doo-doos are for lower 48ers
    Semper Fi!

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    Premium Member kasilofchrisn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greythorn3 View Post
    it dont really matter because arctic cats are the best anyhow. friends dont let friends buy ski-donts. ski-doo-doos are for lower 48ers
    Yup they are the best! except the ones that are catching fire this year like the one in this video:
    http://youtu.be/hMjb4P-Gwqg or this one http://youtu.be/iJVgeKFZHhI Factory defect that led to those fires. Too short of an oil vent tube dripping on the hot exhaust and voila one flaming hot Arctic Cat.
    What about the reverse not working on any of the 2012's and the first fix didn't work?
    If I spent $10,000 on a sled and they couldn't even get something like the reverse to work I would be mad to say the least. They are just telling people who bought them not to use the reverse because if you do and it breaks your machine is down until they can come up with a fix and get your sled into a shop to fix it.
    I also remember some members here on AOD having problems with idler wheel bearings after only a few hundred miles on their bearcats.
    This website is just for you greythorn and you can read all about their problems this year.
    http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/2012...2-sleds-6.html
    I am not against arctic cats but the claim that they are the best and Ski Doo sucks is far from the truth this year.
    Post up some facts about Ski Doo problems on their recent model sleds and I am all ears.
    Can anyone tell me witch of the big four sells the most sleds and has been the sales leader since the introduction of the REV chassis in 2002?
    I hear they own anywhere from 40%-48% of the marketshare!
    I can't find an article on it that is current but considering the fact that Ski Doo owns the most marketshare and has the most returning customers I think I know who really is the leader in the snowmachine industry.

    I think some sharing of ideas or trading of patents is always going to occur. Even some sharing from other industries.
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    Member mjm316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncoformudv View Post
    Are you talking about the rear suspension on the RMK's? If so Polaris did not come up with that they took the design from Holz Racing products an aftermarket manufacturer that came up with it years ago.
    I believe he is talking about the Rush rear suspension
    Tomorrow isn't promised. "Never delay kissing a pretty girl or opening a bottle of whiskey." E. Hemingway

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak View Post
    I remember in the 80's Polaris dominated the front suspension with their Independent Trailing Arm Suspesnion, for many years........ Ski Doo copied it
    And renamed and decaled it DSA (Da Same As)
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    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjm316 View Post
    I believe he is talking about the Rush rear suspension

    That would make sense.

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