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Thread: Handgun Grip, Gripe.

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    Default Handgun Grip, Gripe.

    There is something that AD referred to in a recent post, that I DO NOT understand. Murphy, and others have mentioned it too.

    Perhaps, Iím sticking my neck out, but no matter, Iíve been hung before.

    This idea that one should grip a handgun, as high as possible to better handle recoil.

    I seems to me that having your paw grab the grip, so to speak, farther down, would give one MORE LEVERAGE, to control recoil. Or, in other words, hang onto it, when it tries to jump outta your hand.

    So the question, and it truly is an Honest one, is how does one justify sucha ridiculous, TO ME, idea that it is better to use a HIGH grip, grab?

    Thanks,
    Smitty of the North
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    The closer to the boreline you grip the gun, the less leverage it has to rotate upward in your grip. When one takes a firm high grip on a pistol it goes a long way toward controlling muzzle rise by redirecting the recoil back into the hand and down the arm. Take a 16oz claw hammer and drive a nail with it, then saw the handle of about four inches long and try to drive the same nail, with the short handle the hammer can't pivot in your hand, you can't swing it you have to push it. Same principle, only reversed.

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    The Kid
    That is a good analogy.

    As to the question having your grip or hand up to the highest point of the weapon provides a several benefitsí to shooting or controlling the weapon.
    1) It prevents less lift of the pistol by breaking contact of the hand.
    2) By keeping the hand up high on what some refer to as the tang of the pistol it provide the maximum contact of skin to plastic, wood or steel. There again disallowing or reducing the brake in contact during the firing process which will cause lift.
    3) With the proper grip the recoil will transfer from the pistol thru the hands to the much stronger muscles of the arms that are capable of controlling the force of recoil.
    4) To minimize the recoil one must maximize the skin to plastic, wood or metal contact. Once the recoil process starts and follows the path of least resistance it will compound the force and multiply.

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    What they said, a high grip gives a lot more recoil control, lessens the effect of wiggle and is usually just mo-better.

    But what I was talkin about is there is (at least for me) a point where there is so much recoil that I canít ďcontrolĒ it using a high grip on a single action frame without lots of pain. Thinkin back to watchin Kung-fu on TV them wise ole Chinese monks said something like if you canít stop someoneís movement use it to your advantage.

    Taking a lower grip lets the gun rotate and climb dumping some of that energy into moving the gun rather than me soakin it all up. You lose some stability so loose some off-hand accuracy doing this but itís a trade-off. Now the shape of a double action frame puts you into a lower grip even when you hold high sence the grip sits more under where a SA is more behind. I still use a high grip with good contact area on the DA but the frame shape makes it not as high as on a SA.


    So for me, even though I like a SA much better if itís a gun for a very high recoil round like my 460s I want it in a DA so itís not painful to shoot and I seldom shoot beg power off-hand anyway. I always use as high a grip as I can on all handguns because that always gives me best control.


    Now grab your ole 44 Blackhawk, caulk the hammer, put the web of your hand right up under the hammer as high as comfortable, your middle finger up in the space behind the trigger guard. Pick a spot on the wall and hold on it with that grip ans slowly dry fire at it. Then grab it lower, like most guys do, like itís a 1911 with your hand more vertical and your middle finger isnít behind the trigger guard so much, hold and dry fire on the spot again. Youíll likely find the high grip is much more solid on target.
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    High grip on a hog leg is wrong and can get real nasty with heavy recoil. It also puts your trigger finger at a funny angle and instead of a straight back pull, you pull crooked.
    Even with Pachmeyer grips on a SBH, my little finger is UNDER the grip. Grip tight and let the gun raise your arms. Never let it "roll."
    Grip your gun and look at your finger. It should go straight to the trigger, not down at a 45* angle.
    I just seen a picture of a gun writer in a gun rag holding a six gun high with a 45* angle to his finger and to make it worse he had his finger in all the way to the first joint, 100% wrong.

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    As the others have stated- it is much like a rifle with a Monte Carlo stock (more barrel lift) vs straight stock (more directly back).
    Finding a comfortable place to grip on a smooth stocked SA can be tricky at times as the hand may slide higher than you intended and once it gets on the curve the recoil will be rocked as if on a lever. I think if I were going the SA route again I would do like the Kid and go Bisley- better angle (for me).

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    Good points made, all. As BFR points out, grip angle matters. The idea of perfectly managing recoil is to have NO muzzle rise. If a grip were a "T" handle and the bore were in the center, between your fingers, this would be the best. But this isn't practical so lowering the bore in respect to the anchor point is a move in the right direction. We do this with rifle design too. the AK-47 was the first successful example. The gas tube is on top, the bore is lower and this does help manage recoil especially in full auto.

    An auto loader or full auto is generally the only guns we consider this high grip/lower bore to be advantageous because managing recoil means keeping the gun on target for follow-up shots. Obviously all guns need the recoil managed but when we rock and roll its more important. The stock shape can make a huge difference in felt recoil for large caliber rifles.

    The difference in the 1911 and the Glock, just (just for two examples) are examples of bore versus grip position differences. The difference is slight but the laws of physics recognize small adjustments. It is leverage, a simple concept. We modified the 1911's grip safety to allow a slightly higher grip (and a protective beavertail) and I can tell a difference in guns so equipped.

    Of course other features of the Glock help mitigate felt recoil too. (The plastic flexible frame helps too)

    You can take your favorite auto loader pistol and shoot with good high grip then shoot with your hand moved down to leve a 1/4" gap above your hand and the frame curve (or grip safety). You will notice a big difference.

    Now on D/A revolvers, this holds true as well and if you study Jerry Miculek and his techniques you'll see how important that is as well but here again, follow-up shots, in the same place (target center) are what matters.

    I have shot guns upside down in exhibition shooting, primarily the 1911, and the recoil then is flipping the muzzle down at the shot rather than muzzle up because the muzzle is lower than the anchor point (pivot). I use my pinky on the trigger in case you wonder and I cut playing cards, edged in a slot in a target board. Try it sometime.

    I teach new and experienced shooters alike to get a strong grip as high as possible on the grip frame and to duplicate the grip each time. Of course trigger position is important as BFR points out and some gun designs don't help. They have high anchor point but trigger position is too low causing other difficulties. Also do not allow the grip to slip between shots.

    If you hold a gun correctly but loosely, and have someone jack the gun up and down as recoil will do you will notice that the gun works it way up out of your hand. You cannot shoot a good group if the gun moves in your hand between shots. You have a new grip each time and this gives the gun a different anchor each time so the muzzle flips more or differently each shot and the bullet follows the bore so shots scatter and wonder around the target. We call this using the whole target not just the center. Many shooters fail to grip the pistol correctly or strongly enough to group well in sustained fire. We can have good fundamentals and shoot good groups in slow fire, when we re-grip between shots, but rapid fire (by whatever definition you use) will result in poor grouping if we can't maintain a good grip, which is managing recoil to the point where it does not disturb our grip each shot. Gripping high on the semi-auto or D/A revolver is a vital step toward this goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrshooter View Post
    High grip on a hog leg is wrong and can get real nasty with heavy recoil. It also puts your trigger finger at a funny angle and instead of a straight back pull, you pull crooked.
    Even with Pachmeyer grips on a SBH, my little finger is UNDER the grip. Grip tight and let the gun raise your arms. Never let it "roll."
    Grip your gun and look at your finger. It should go straight to the trigger, not down at a 45* angle.
    I just seen a picture of a gun writer in a gun rag holding a six gun high with a 45* angle to his finger and to make it worse he had his finger in all the way to the first joint, 100% wrong.
    Yes trigger pull angle is important and is the major reason the Bisley grip was invented. But there are also many other factors in braking a good shot and everyone is different. For me and most that have tried the high SA grip as I described for Smitty, trigger pull angle is less important than the added stability you get. High grip usually dramatically better and can be spotted quickly as you watch the sites roll to the right (if right handed) off target as trigger pressure is applied with the lower grip. Not true for everyone but is for most.

    Oh, and yes my little finger hooks under the butt to help stop muzzle flip but not everyoneís hands are big as mine. Everyone is different which is why everyone should try a lot of different stuff and see what works best for them but the more in-line to the pipe you can get the forearm the more solid the gun sits on target. Ain't no right and wrong, it's more what works for you and don't work for you. Hard to tell someone splittin playing cards with an up-side down gun they'r doin it wrong don't ya think . . . if it works then it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yes trigger pull angle is important and is the major reason the Bisley grip was invented. But there are also many other factors in braking a good shot and everyone is different. For me and most that have tried the high SA grip as I described for Smitty, trigger pull angle is less important than the added stability you get. High grip usually dramatically better and can be spotted quickly as you watch the sites roll to the right (if right handed) off target as trigger pressure is applied with the lower grip. Not true for everyone but is for most.

    Oh, and yes my little finger hooks under the butt to help stop muzzle flip but not everyoneís hands are big as mine. Everyone is different which is why everyone should try a lot of different stuff and see what works best for them but the more in-line to the pipe you can get the forearm the more solid the gun sits on target. Ain't no right and wrong, it's more what works for you and don't work for you. Hard to tell someone splittin playing cards with an up-side down gun they'r doin it wrong don't ya think . . . if it works then it works.
    There is no doubt that an individuals ability to adapt their hand to any particular handgun grip frame is an integral part of good handgun marksmanship. I've seen so many very good shots made by folks with very unorthodox grip. As a trainer I can only speak in general terms and even then what works best for the individual may be something totally different that what works for me. I'm sure you're aware of all this and I am not to doubt anyone's ability to shoot a handgun accurately, certainly not your's or BFR's. I too like shooting the single action frames and find them easier on me than any other when chambered in the big bores. I shoot a 475 LB and a 500 LB in Ruger Bisley frames. I did alter the Bisley trigger to work better for me. For me these guns are about 150 yard guns with good iron sights so there's no real grouping. I keep shots about 8" on a D-1 target at 150 yards with a rest, on a good day. I don't let the guns rotate upward, I grip tight and let them lift my arm and that dampens recoil and keeps my tender hands from getting bruised. I have a FA in 475 also with the polished micarta grips and it works the same way and doesn't slip if I hold tight.
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    Jerry says high big guns lower small guns
    http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek2.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Jerry says high big guns lower small guns
    http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek2.html
    A general concept, then adaptation for a particular gun and shooter. Who could argue with that revolver master of masters?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Jerry says high big guns lower small guns
    http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/.../miculek2.html
    Great link there but "high big guns lower small guns" is opposite what I get from reading it, unless you mean 'high gun' which is a lower grip.

    From the link:
    All the grip techniques that we discussed here are good up to about a 200 power factor. Now we are going to take this Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum with a 640 power factor and show you the grip technique that I use to shoot this. One of the key things that I do different when I shoot a power factor this heavy, I want to get the revolver a little bit higher in my hand and the reason for that is if I get it down really too low, its going to beat me up. So Iím going to let the gun torque a little bit and let it jump. Iím going to have the revolver just a little bit higher, about half an inch, grab it just like I did the other revolvers, and pull it straight back.


    I think he is saying the same thing I have been, high grip is best for accuracy but with true big power you got to move down and let it move some for pain factor. On my 460s Iím up high as I can get and still be well on the grip. This puts the sights about 1-1/2Ē taller than the top of my hand, that's tall and is not near as stable as choking way up but trust me you don't want to be off that grip. Lets the rubber of the grip take most of the slap and life is good. The recoil slap of 400g pushed over 1450fps over 4Ē of barrel would be simply unbearable for me in a SA revolver, hot 454 is quite unpleasant enough show me I needed another way to skin that cat and go DA with a nice cushy grip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    A general concept, then adaptation for a particular gun and shooter. Who could argue with that revolver master of masters?
    I sure wouldn't argue with him. The man is a revolver shooting machine. I'm most amazed how fast he can reload the dang things! They NEVER come out and go back in that clean for me.
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    Jeery has a vid out showing high grip frame grip for big bore revolvers and more center grip for guns like J and K frame rounf grips
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    Is it this one or one I havent found? I may get this one anyway, price is a tad rough though.

    http://www.bang-inc.com/index.php?ma...products_id=11
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I'm off some on membering things here it is
    http://www.myoutdoortv.com/shooting/...-revolver-grip
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrshooter View Post
    High grip on a hog leg is wrong and can get real nasty with heavy recoil. It also puts your trigger finger at a funny angle and instead of a straight back pull, you pull crooked.
    Even with Pachmeyer grips on a SBH, my little finger is UNDER the grip. Grip tight and let the gun raise your arms. Never let it "roll."
    Grip your gun and look at your finger. It should go straight to the trigger, not down at a 45* angle.
    I just seen a picture of a gun writer in a gun rag holding a six gun high with a 45* angle to his finger and to make it worse he had his finger in all the way to the first joint, 100% wrong.
    There is an answer that makes some sense to me.

    I would add, that I find it more comfortable to shoot a handgun SA, DA, or Auto, with a grip that is low enough that it doesn't hurt the web between my thumb, and my hand when I shoot.

    IMO, and In my howlbeit limited experience, a longer grip, like you have with the Hogue grips, is an improvement.

    Those trick shooters aren't using heavy recoil loads, so I don't think their methods apply for extreme recoil.

    Further, when using an extremely heavy recoil handgun/cartridge, if the gun DID recoil "straight back", I would be concerned that it could eventually damage my hand, or wrist. I believe that the recoil should be absorbed by the lifting of the gun, and arm, or arms.

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    Thanks Will, I looked all over and never found that video. Still wondering what golden tidbits I could gleam from the master for my $35 on that DVD I found though.
     
    Smitty, where'd ya go? You started this here good thread then run off, I thought youíd poke your head in sometime??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I believe that the recoil should be absorbed by the lifting of the gun, and arm, or arms.

    Smitty of the North
    Yup, if itís enough recoil you canít effectively hold it down without pain let it go up, re-direct it by letting it push up. Then at the next level of recoil where just letting it go up isnĎt stopping the pain the gun needs to move inside the grip some too.

    Watch this video Will posted and at the end he shoots a 500S&W, you see the gun rotate/roll in his hand then the arms come up. Now that feller there can shoot playing cards at 50 feet every time with that 500 at full power, he is definitely in control of it. The gun rotates/rolls inside the grip but the grip stays solid in his hand, the soft rubber takes the sting then arms take the push upward.

    I learned the hard way NOT to take a ďtightĒ grip with a very powerful gun like that because then my hands take that sting and my right hand throbbed all day and I thought Iíd damaged the nerves in it. Loosen up to a ďfirmĒ grip, let the rubber work, let the gun move and I can shoot that same gun accurately all day long and enjoy it like do my 357 Blackhawk.
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    Thanks AD:

    I git it, I theenk..... "High, don't always apply."

    I gotta split wood, to keep this pooter warm, but I always check in from time to time.

    Smitty of the North
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    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
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