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Thread: Pushing the barrel down

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    Default Pushing the barrel down

    Is pushing the barrel down a bad habit that is "learned" or is it merely a result of "muscle memory" from the body reacting too, anticipating and controlling recoil? Is it something that we need to consciously work on NOT doing. Or is it something we always do but only notice if there is a click no bang?


    When shooting my revolvers at times I will leave a chamber empty or after shooting six I'll keep shooting and pay attention to what I do. If anything, I find I push the barrel down.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Member gunbugs's Avatar
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    Anticipation of recoil. Concentrate on follow through, literally try to visually follow the bullet to the target.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    That there tis a bad habit, a flinch. Ideally when it clicks nothing should happen, sights should be locked on target or there about still. Need to work on it, calm mind, concentrate on sight picture regardless of recoil. Visualize the flight path as Gunbugs says and have someone load for you so you have no idea when the click will happen or even if it will happen. Train yourself to the point that when you get a click nothing happens, no flinch . . . if the gun moves itĎs only from recoil and not you. Takes a lot of shooting to get over this and it comes back all too easy.
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    Default concentration...

    It takes a lot of concentration and practice to overcoming flinching esp. on the heavy recoiling guns like the .500 S&W or guns with really nasty recoil like the 329 PD. I've pretty much beat the habit and when my gun unexpectively goes "click" instead of bang the barrel doesn't move anymore than my regular shaking.

    For some reason women that start shooting appear to have less issues with flinching than men- perhaps they haven't heard all the stories about recoil us males hear growing up.



    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    That there tis a bad habit, a flinch. Ideally when it clicks nothing should happen, sights should be locked on target or there about still. Need to work on it, calm mind, concentrate on sight picture regardless of recoil. Visualize the flight path as Gunbugs says and have someone load for you so you have no idea when the click will happen or even if it will happen. Train yourself to the point that when you get a click nothing happens, no flinch . . . if the gun moves itĎs only from recoil and not you. Takes a lot of shooting to get over this and it comes back all too easy.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    It doesn't happen all the time, that's why I do the one empty chamber drill to see how I'm doing. I think I'm better than I used to be. But, I did notice it a couple times last time I was out shooting my 45 acp. I'm getting used to a new gun and a couple times I didn't flip the safety off after loading up. First pull of the trigger and down goes the barrel and sometimes the eye wants to close.

    Funny how the neuromuscular system takes over like that. I'm familiar with intentionally building muscle memory by doing certain drills when training for downhill skiing and rescue toboggan techniques. But it's intentional whereas this is unintentional. It's like training yourself to "unlearn" a certain muscle memory and replace it with one that may be counterintuitive to the body. It's like the body knows the recoil is coming and wants to "defend" against it.

    Well, that's where plenty of powder, primers and a few hundred pounds of lead come in handy huh?
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Load up your .357 alternately with .38s & hot .357s and practice a lot. Eventually you will get the hang of it.
    When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
    '08 24' HCM Granite HD "River Dog"

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    The most useful tool I have employed in order to break bad habits when shooting are snap caps. My wife would literaly pull back her arm, shoulder and rifle when pulling the trigger, I was able to get her to notice her bad habit and correct by loading the rifle for her an inserting a snap cap in random order.

    Give it a try on your wheel gun, insert one or two and rotate the cylinder then close it without taking notice of where the "caps" are in the rotation. Concentrate on your form and downrange target.

    You could also make a couple of "duds" that would be indistinguishable from the live rounds from the rear and prevent you from "peaking".

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    Snyd:
    It is indeed funny how the mind/body want to resist an expected force. I too practice with an empty chaber at times when shooting heavy revolvers, but to be honest if I notice sloopy technique, I spend time with lesser recoiling guns again to perfect it again. That may sound overly simple to some, but I think shooting a model 17 or 686 with .38 specials in it is perfect for working on form/technique. That is why I always take several callibers/guns with me to shoot. The most important thing is that the shooter be aware of the error and work on it. (I am glad I am not the only one!).

    No one is so good that they can shoot without the basics. Unfortunately many people let egos interfere with form and don't admit that they need to work on some aspect of their shooting.

    I sold a .340 Weatherby because I just could not shake the 'flinch'- I can't explain it but I hated the way that gun felt when I touched off a round and knew I would never be able to shoot it well.
    BEE

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    Thanks for all the pointers guys and I do use them all from time to time. I have come to the conclusion that it's a fight against the bodies natural reflex like eyes closing when you sneeze. It's something we have to "unlearn" or "overcome" as opposed to something that we learn. It's counterintuitive for the neuromuscular system. Which I think makes it more of a challenge.

    AKBEE, good point there recognizing ones limits or weakness. With me and handguns (at least the ones I have) it's shooting the 38 snubbie DA. It's just plain hard for me to shoot it with any great accuracy. I'm more accurate with my 454. For me it's basically a "belly gun". But, with that gun it's probably more of me needing to learn something rather that having to overcome a reflex. Probably grip and trigger control.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Snyd
    I run into this on a daily basis with my students, yes it is part training scar and part trigger pull. I teach once you have mastered how long your first trigger pull is and the weapon has fired then hold your trigger to the rear. Slowly release your trigger and get trigger reset, once you have heard or felt the click you are now primed for the next shot and half of the trigger pull. This is a technique used in combat shooting for speed. Trigger pull can be mastered as others have stated previously and itís not that difficult to achieve once you learn where the break over point is on the first pull.

    Now trigger slap and or jerk is another area.
    Last edited by sweepint; 01-22-2012 at 10:28. Reason: grammor

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    I'd like to think most of you have natural talent with guns. I dunno. I do.... but enough about me.

    What I do know is that we are all dust blowin in the wind, so be kind to others and animals that we share this planet with. We all feel pain. We all have families. We all deserve to live without fear of being hunted or killed. Maybe someday this world will change.

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    Yup everyone has family and we all got to eat, way of the world that won't ever change.
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    Default Top of the heap

    It's great to be at the top of the food chain with a gun and the ability to use it.

    And as long as there are horrible evil people that mean harm to me and my family I reserve the right to kill them too.

    May God continue to bless us with the ability to feed and defend us and our families. Curses and ****ation upon anyone that would attempt to take that ability away from us.



    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yup everyone has family and we all got to eat, way of the world that won't ever change.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    It's great to be at the top of the food chain with a gun and the ability to use it.

    And as long as there are horrible evil people that mean harm to me and my family I reserve the right to kill them too.

    May God continue to bless us with the ability to feed and defend us and our families. Curses and ****ation upon anyone that would attempt to take that ability away from us.
    Amen to that sentiment!

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    That is FLINCH, fear of recoil stored in your brain. All of us do at one time or another. Those that think a gun hurts do it more and maybe every shot.
    That is the hardest thing to cure. I even did it a bunch with an empty .22!
    Only bench shooting removes my flinch 100%.
    It drives me nuts too. I shoot the revolver off hand at 100 yards and mostly hit what I shoot at but if an empty comes around the barrel will dip. I cuss!
    I got mad at myself so the next time I shot these three shots on my steel at 100 yards with the SBH. Yet I have no complete cure.

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    Yup, you caught the flinch. Unfortunately it can be a bugger to cure.

    I made some serious mistakes with my first big bore revolver, a 44 mag sbh. The biggest mistake was when I'd try to shoot through a flinch, never, ever, ever do that. Once you find yourself flinching, stop your heavy load shooting session and switch a 22rf. If you still can't make the flinch go away, stop your shooting session for the day. The problem was I didn't realize I was flinching. The target showed the flinch, but I didn't feel myself doing it. Once you've established a flinch, and keep shooting heavy loads, you re-inforce it and it's a nightmare to get rid of. I still fight it to this day. The odd thing is, I don't have a flinching problem with rifles.

    One of the best ways to cure it, and to help your off hand shooting in general is to put in dryfiring sessions every night. Have a target set up at say 25 yds and put full concentration on each and every trigger pull. You'll be suprised at how much concentration it takes, and if you take 50-100 dry fire "shots" every night, you'll notice a huge improvement in your ability to shoot off hand, as well as helping the flinch go away.
    Those that are successful in Alaska are those who are flexible, and allow the reality of life in Alaska to shape their dreams, vs. trying to force their dreams on the reality of Alaska.

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    As Paul H said, probably the best "cure" is to practice dry firing.
    And since it happens to be in the negative temps...
    Practice inside ain't necessarly a bad thing.

    Keep your powder dry,
    Chris

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    Yup, I do lots of dry firing. At home and at the range while shooting. I guess my post had more to do with how the body does what it does and that in doing all these things we are trying to get the body to NOT do what it wants to do. We're teaching it to bypass a defense mechanism of sorts. I'd venture to say it's easier for some than others as well.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Muscle memory with practice. But my stupid brain says otherwise.
    I have dry fired a zillion shots but I know there is no recoil.
    I shoot much heavier stuff and get it under control and that works better then a .22 or an empty gun. Shoot a .22 to perfection and the .475 will whip your butt!

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    Here's a resource that can be used to diagnose and help correct any habits.

    http://blog.hsoi.com/2009/06/15/corr...ting-problems/
    Now what ?

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