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Thread: aerial grizzly shooting...

  1. #1

    Default aerial grizzly shooting...

    Not sure I'm too thrilled about this one. Why are grizzlies on a registration hunt right now and not a general season hunt? Why was it a drawing hunt during the 2007-2010 seasons with 10 tags allowed if the musk ox were getting hammered so bad and the sustainable number of grizzlies could have allowed a higher harvest that had never been met even when it was an open, general season? I had to pass up numerous bears in areas where musk ox frequent over the years because I did not draw one of the few tags allowed. This one kinda ticks me off since they've known grizzly bears have been a big part of the problem for this entire time, yet they restricted hunting of them. Where do I sign up to be accompanied by a department employee so I can go kill one of these problem bears? The meat on these are excellent, and I wouldn't mind an extra hide in the house.

    The board Tuesday approved aerial shooting of bears for the first time as it voted to protect musk oxen in Arctic Ocean drainages west of the Canning River.

    According to the department, the musk oxen population has not reached the department's objective of at least 300 animals. Grizzlies killed most musk oxen between 2007 and 2011, the department said, and officials asked for "selective, lethal brown bear removal" to let musk oxen recover.

    The board approved the killing of grizzlies from aircraft by a department employee or someone accompanied by a department employee.

  2. #2
    Member Yellowknife's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not sure I'm too impressed with the idea of F&G shooting bears either. I mean how far are we going to go here?

    That said, the debate was considerably more complex than ADN is really covering. What F&G lobbied for was to be allowed to remove SPECIFIC bears that they know prey heavily on the muskox population. Thus the "selective" part of the proposal. They had some reasoning as to why they thought that there was little to no possibility that hunters would likely affect these bears. Primarily the remoteness of most of the herds, and extremely low success rates of hunters as I recall, although I wasn't paying that much attention.

    Yk

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    Personally, I am going to shoot EVERY aerail grizzly I see. Nature is just too dangerous to let it run free.

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    LOL - Aerial grizzlies..... I've seen more than a few grizzlies in my time, but they've never been air-born. They must be the rare and endangered variety that take flight when spooked.

    Sorry to interupt a serious discussion...... I just had to laugh at the unintended pun.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I guess some day the only way you will be able to take game is belong to F&G or be a contractor for them. We need alot more land owned by people and much less owned by state and fed.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Jerod it has only been in the last year or so they have been able to recognize the Grizzly as the cause of the declining ox population. the Grizz is not over populated up there... they want to take some out of a specified area.. it had been a draw hunt for many years as a managed hunt population.

    with the sudden decline of ox.. they were forced to take action to allow the ox to recover. once things start getting better, you'll see another change in the bear hunting. as spring hunting up that way is extremely popular.. as you well know..

    come to our meetings more often you'll know.. or come over for coffee and we can discuss a lot of whats going on...

    however... on this subject..

    it has been more favorable for Dept staff to shoot problem bears / wolves then allowing the public to do so...at least in the eyes of saving face with those who disapprove or aerial shooting at all...

    SO if you have 10 bears KNOWN to be ox killers... what is the fastest way to kill them off..???? ~18 month of registration permits did not get them all. ( we Know Ernie got it) so if they are collared, and locatable.. permitting the Dept to go get them is the easiest way to do so...
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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Jerod it has only been in the last year or so they have been able to recognize the Grizzly as the cause of the declining ox population.
    Really? From an article published in 2006:

    One big factor in the decline: multiple kills by grizzlies. They seem to happen only on the Slope, not to musk oxen in other herds such as those at Cape Thompson or on the Seward Peninsula in Northwest Alaska, biologists say.

    Musk oxen top out at 800 pounds and can kill smaller bears with thrusts from their dangerous horns. But on 14 occasions since 1998, a grizzly has killed two to six musk oxen at a time, biologists said.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Here's the abstract from a scientific study published in 2002:

    A population of muskoxen (Ovibos moschatus), successfully restored to northeastern Alaska in the 1970's, has become a source of food for grizzly bears (Ursus arctos). We tested whether grizzly bear predation on this population of muskoxen increased over time and described multiple kills of muskoxen by grizzly bears. We identified bear-muskox events from data collected between April 1982 and June 2001 during bear and muskox surveys and radiorelocation flights and from field notes, mortality records of radiocollared muskoxen, and other observations made by biologists, pilots, and local residents. Ninety-two bear-muskox events observed in 1982-2001 included 46 known kills, 37 possible kills or scavenging events, and 9 chases. Ten of 61 radiocollared muskoxen that died between 1982 and 2001 were killed by bears and 14 others were possibly killed or scavenged. The number of known kills and possible kills or scavenging increased significantly over time. Multiple kills, where 2 or more muskoxen were killed from a group, contributed to the number of known kills. Twenty-eight of 46 muskoxen (61%) killed by bears died during multiple kills. Twenty-two of these deaths occurred in 1998-2001. Ten marked grizzly bears were implicated in single or multiple kills, suggesting that several bears in northeastern Alaska became proficient predators of muskoxen in spite of the group-defensive behavior and formidable horns of muskoxen. The low numbers of muskox calves observed in 2000 and 2001 (<5 calves/100 females >2 years of age) may be due in part to predation of neonatal calves by grizzly bears. The successful return of muskoxen to northeastern Alaska has created a predictable source of large mammal protein for some grizzly bears.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    And just for kicks, here's a news item from 2007 where the AOC posted a YouTube clip on their site and asked people to contact the state government in an attempt to raise awareness about the predation of musk-ox by grizzlies. As noted in the link, a former F&G bio mentioned under the YouTube clip that:

    ....there are no muskoxen left there (ANWR) now. Yeah, that's right. Zero. This predatory behavior pattern has also now spread to Unit 26B, and I'm predicting that within about 5 years, muskoxen will be gone from the slope except for a few straggling bulls. Now that the problem is in 26B, and almost entirely on state land, we need to take action.
    Only in the last year or so, huh?

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Wow Brian, and you learned all this without going

    "to our meetings more often you'll know.. or come over for coffee and we can discuss a lot of whats going on...
    however... on this subject.."

    Impressive.

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Brian M again."
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    yeah my bad.. typing on the run... but you do know that action has only been takin over the last just over a year regarding the predation problem on them... last spring? one before? when the draw when to registration? it has taken some time for the process and studies to be done and changes made..

    making the jump fro draw hunt to registration hunt... is not as easy as some think... outside of temporay emerganciy orders that have expiration dates... Codified languange must be changed...

    But.. that was not the question brian...

    simple form...


    a group of bears need to die... whats the fastest way to make the happen??? issue a permit for them to Dept gunners. Done.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    And if you still dont understand WHY??? go read all that on predator, / prey managment issues in those other threads..

    and if you ever want a chance again to hunt Ox... we best save this group... be cause i just got back from probably the LAST Registration hunt from the NW... we'll see in our life time... unless of course you want to spend 10K or better on the Nunivak..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Well, I gotta commend Beth Lenart for an excellent presentation for the Dept on this. But it isn't like we didn't know this was going on for a while. And keep in mind it isn't just a predation issue, it possibly also relates to a mineral deficiency issue among muskox. I think last year was the first year they allowed a registration hunt up there and I know a couple guys who took a grizz while out hunting for other species on that permit.

    I think at some point a lot of this gets pretty ridiculous when you start looking at the costs. I'm starting to come around to thinking maybe we should allow nonres hunting of grizz without a guide in some areas where we have these problems, instead of costing the state at least that brings some money in and allows more opportunity for those who may never be able to afford a guided hunt. Then again, pretty remote area and they do want to target the specific muskox "killers," so in terms of efficacy I agree the Dept doing it is much more likely to help.

    For those who didn't follow the meeting, one of the more interesting discussions and outcomes that I hadn't heard before is the Board had to prioritize all the pred control plans they just passed because of staff/aircraft/funding issues. I think the grizz up north was the last priority for this spring. Of course weather is always a factor, so who knows how it will go.

    This one didn't raise an alarm like the Unit 19 proposed plan though, which came about at the last minute when the Dept inserted new language to kill black and brown bears from helos. Many of you know I think we're going too far on the bear side, whether snares and now aerial gunning. We're gonna kill animals that are really great sources of meat and hides, God knows what the plan may be to salvage the meat, but if the Dept does not salvage the meat it sets a very bad precedent in my opinion. I'll be talking with Dept staff on that before the March meeting and I hope others do too.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Wow Brian, and you learned all this without going

    "to our meetings more often you'll know.. or come over for coffee and we can discuss a lot of whats going on...
    however... on this subject.."

    Impressive.

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Brian M again."
    Gee lost in the bushes found his voice again... perhaps had you spent anytime out side of this forum managing your keybaord you would know more then the papers tell you..


    these issues were all discussed at the Fairbanks AC and the committee meetings with the Bio's and dept staff... jerod knows when and where to find us...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  15. #15

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    Vince,

    I have to disagree with some of your statement, they've known for a long time that grizzlies are a major contributing factor to musk ox mortality on the north slope, I think Brian covered that part though.

    I invested quite a bit time several years ago going to meetings, and playing the BOG cluster. The reason the grizzly hunt up north went to draw was that there were too many opportunistic caribou hunters going after grizzlies. The sustainable yield of grizzlies wasn't being met inside or outside of the corridor, and the act of putting that draw in place was discriminatory against bowhunters, plain and simple. I realize the population isn't out of control, but it wasn't to a point where they needed to limit hunting. I gues I still had a chip on my shoulder about that and reading that newsclip brought it back out.

    I can see their point of wanting to target certain bears to help the population of musk ox. That realistically can't be accomplished with changing the bear hunting regulations in that area. If they wouldn't have farted around with the harvest several years ago, then I am pretty sure I could have taken a nice boar one season and a large sow in another. A few of those years I didn't get the chance to go out because I didn't have a tag. Maybe these bears are a couple of the current problem bears and I could have helped the situation? If they are looking to take out 10 "problem" bears, then that could have been 10-20% of the issue. Maybe even more depending on if the sow had cubs and taught them how to chase grizzlies. I hunt the bears where I frequently see musk ox, so this is a likely scenario, although I will gladly embelish a little on my own behalf. sarcasm intended.

    *this post was in reference to Vince's first post.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    I think at some point a lot of this gets pretty ridiculous when you start looking at the costs. I'm starting to come around to thinking maybe we should allow nonres hunting of grizz without a guide in some areas where we have these problems, instead of costing the state at least that brings some money in and allows more opportunity for those who may never be able to afford a guided hunt. Then again, pretty remote area and they do want to target the specific muskox "killers," so in terms of efficacy I agree the Dept doing it is much more likely to help.

    Been saying that for a long time Mark and so have you.. however its a death wish to any legislator that brings it up.. their term is over at the next election
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    ...jerod knows when and where to find us...
    Your constant self aggrandizing is underwhelming.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    these issues were all discussed at the Fairbanks AC and the committee meetings with the Bio's and dept staff... jerod knows when and where to find us...
    In all honosty, I have wanted to attend the meetings, but I have been unable to attend due to family obligations. Recently it has been my daughters soccer, gymnastics and last month I missed the monthly advisory meeting due to holiday concerts at their schools. The main reason I was hoping to attend was to stay up to date on the 20A and 20B moose situations, but I manage to find some time to get in and talk directly to the bio's about what is going on. I learned years ago that unless you bring an army along with you, an individual voice is about as useless as nipples on a musk ox killing boar grizzly bear.

  19. #19
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Folks need to take a grizz before taking their ox.I know Stranger does his share on bear and wolf but many just go for the meat instead of working on the whole critter structure leaving Stranger or the government the job
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  20. #20

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    Well being around the Ox i came to the conclusion there is a reason they disappeared before and they will again. They are dumb! Heck they have a hard time with no predators.

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