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Thread: ADF&G web page

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    Default ADF&G web page

    Anybody take a look at this? Looks like the take over is complete. Basically a propaganda page touting the new predator control programs.

    https://secure.wildlife.alaska.gov/i...g=control.main
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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    "intensive management"= welfare for hunters
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    More folks need to look at the Michigan Isle Royal moose/wolf populations.Zero hunting or influence by man over fifty years of intense study. Low numbers are around 500 moose and 12 wolves with high Numbers at 2,000 moose and 50 wolves and an average of 1,000 moose and 24 wolves.Seldom can wolves take down a healthy moose without at least one being injured and many times killed. Its often the sickest weakest/calf moose that are taken.Without man both groups are fine and even if man is just 10% of kill in many places it tips the balance. We refuse to admit its man numbers increase that make the change not rest the of nature that does fine without us.
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    This may be the winter that proves the fallacy of "Intensive Management". Doesn't matter how many animals they produce if they can't get them through the winter. And the more that go into a bad winter like this, the more damage they do to the habitat and the longer it takes to recover, predators or no predators.
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    If they manage to block the unit 20 cow hunts we will have to curtail intensive management in that area. Simple fact is you cannot pluck from one side of the predator-prey scale without taking some from the other to keep it level.

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    Poor habitat is like a bad economy. You can create a few more moose to kill by juggling numbers and killing a few wolves, but it won't improve habitat any more than food stamps and public assistance improves the economy. Just gives a few folks the means to claim things are getting better.
    Wolf "control" will "create" more moose... a FEW more moose... for harvest, but it won't make the hunting any better any more than welfare helps the economy. There will be new cow hunts, but it doesn't lead to trophy hunting or better hunting, just more opportunity to participate in the culling that "intensive management" necessitates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    If they manage to block the unit 20 cow hunts we will have to curtail intensive management in that area. Simple fact is you cannot pluck from one side of the predator-prey scale without taking some from the other to keep it level.
    there is no predator managment in 20A.. the goal all aling has been to bring the moose numbers down to what the area can support,
    the push to resrtict antlerless now is by a few folks that dont like folks from mat su and soldatna hunting in their area... at leat that was bich at the election
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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    More folks need to look at the Michigan Isle Royal moose/wolf populations.Zero hunting or influence by man over fifty years of intense study. Low numbers are around 500 moose and 12 wolves with high Numbers at 2,000 moose and 50 wolves and an average of 1,000 moose and 24 wolves.Seldom can wolves take down a healthy moose without at least one being injured and many times killed. Its often the sickest weakest/calf moose that are taken.Without man both groups are fine and even if man is just 10% of kill in many places it tips the balance. We refuse to admit its man numbers increase that make the change not rest the of nature that does fine without us.
    A friend and I trapped South of Nulato one winter over a two month period. We covered about 12-18 miles on the north shore of the Yukon. In that time period we found 10-12 dead moose from wolf kills. Some were just left to spoil and only 2 were eaten. It was just a waste to see so many moose killed and just left. Usually the nose and hind quarters were attacked first. One in particular was a huge cow in a willow patch. We knew she was there and frequently looked at her. One day she just wasn't there and when we checked, yep, wolves had taken her down, nose chewed and hind legs with teeth marks. Wolves do kill adult moose. A lot of them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    More folks need to look at the Michigan Isle Royal moose/wolf populations.Zero hunting or influence by man over fifty years of intense study. Low numbers are around 500 moose and 12 wolves with high Numbers at 2,000 moose and 50 wolves and an average of 1,000 moose and 24 wolves.Seldom can wolves take down a healthy moose without at least one being injured and many times killed. Its often the sickest weakest/calf moose that are taken.Without man both groups are fine and even if man is just 10% of kill in many places it tips the balance. We refuse to admit its man numbers increase that make the change not rest the of nature that does fine without us.
    Your comparison is poor and a totally different situation to the Alaska wolf scenario (I'm sure you know that). One cannot compare a relatively closed population of wolves & moose such as Isle Royale (I was last there in 1975) to an open landscape where wolves commonly travel in packs for several hundred miles to find food. That zepplin won't fly....

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskan Woodsman View Post
    Your comparison is poor and a totally different situation to the Alaska wolf scenario (I'm sure you know that). One cannot compare a relatively closed population of wolves & moose such as Isle Royale (I was last there in 1975) to an open landscape where wolves commonly travel in packs for several hundred miles to find food.
    With due respect, I don't think your statement holds water. Rather than just saying we can't compare Isle Royale predator prey relationship to Alaska predator prey relationship, without any substantiation, perhaps you could try to explain exactly WHY you don't think it's a valid comparison?
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    This may be the winter that proves the fallacy of "Intensive Management". Doesn't matter how many animals they produce if they can't get them through the winter. And the more that go into a bad winter like this, the more damage they do to the habitat and the longer it takes to recover, predators or no predators.
    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    If they manage to block the unit 20 cow hunts we will have to curtail intensive management in that area. Simple fact is you cannot pluck from one side of the predator-prey scale without taking some from the other to keep it level.
    The point here is that if the moose population exceeds the carrying capacity of the habitat, it doesn't matter how many predators you remove.

    Without human meddling, uh...sorry, I mean "management", the fact is that moose populations are determined by the carrying capacity of the ecosystem; predator populations follow prey populations. On Isle Royale, or in Alaska, that reality remains true.

    We humans can temporarily throw the balance out of wack and push the prey population up beyond the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, but it's not sustainable for long and the population will ultimately crash. Removing predators will not effect this.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The point here is that if the moose population exceeds the carrying capacity of the habitat, it doesn't matter how many predators you remove.

    Without human meddling, uh...sorry, I mean "management", the fact is that moose populations are determined by the carrying capacity of the ecosystem; predator populations follow prey populations. On Isle Royale, or in Alaska, that reality remains true.

    We humans can temporarily throw the balance out of wack and push the prey population up beyond the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, but it's not sustainable for long and the population will ultimately crash. Removing predators will not effect this.
    The Point here is people have been part of the equation since they began hunting, the Human is NOT NEW to the scene.
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    Predator control helped boost moose numbers back toward what the habitat was able to sustain during the 1980's & 90s' (habitat was declining in those days but moose populations were still pretty good ie few wolves). Moose are moving back in to those areas decimated by wolves because the appropriate wolf control program was allowed.

    Large areas of habitat (what was there) in GMU 16B became way under utilized after the wolf population was "allowed" to increase during the Gov. Tony Knowles (do nothing) administration. We are only now creeping out of the costly predator pit the Knowles administration bought in to by listening only to the "naturalist" biologists. (Many biologists were in favor of active management in those days but were job impared if they bucked the Knowles Administration.)

    In the future, as populations of game animals improve back to their former ranges and in numbers that offer more game animals for people, subsistence, family and sport hunting use - there will be a call to improve wildlife habitats as appropriate - much like what has been successfully accomplished in the Fairbanks - Delta Areas of the Tanana State Forest and in those areas where Native Village & Corporate lands are becoming more proactive and forward thinking (its happening).

    I'll be in favor of that kind of "Intensive Management" (IM) also. I am happy to shoot cow moose. The objective of "intensive management" is hands on management that allows us to shoot more moose. IM is doing that in many locations. MANY of us are happy with more moose of all kinds to shoot for food.

    I think the Alaska Department of Fish & Game, Division of Wildlife Conservation has been doing an excellent job. Many thanks to ADF&G for their ability and leadership. In addition to the Intensive Management Program they created the new Game Management Region and the new Small Game Program which is a dream come true for many of us and we have high hopes for it's success.

    I am hugely optimistic about the future and can't wait to see what happens next!

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    The Point here is people have been part of the equation since they began hunting, the Human is NOT NEW to the scene.
    Yes. But that doesn't change any of the biological reality of the predator / prey/ ecosystem relationship.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    The Point here is people have been part of the equation since they began hunting, the Human is NOT NEW to the scene.

    Hello Vince...

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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Yes. But that doesn't change any of the biological reality of the predator / prey/ ecosystem relationship.
    nor does it change the fact, that a few years ago, there were no groups, wearing petroleum based clothing, lamenting for the sake of a wolf or bear, and yet they did just fine with heavy hunting, and control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    Hello Vince...
    hi John
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    The classic example of predator control program that works and continues to work is unit 13... I'm for the predator control that is going on in unit 16B. When you sit in the boat and see two moose calves bail into the river **** near die swimming across the river and guess what momma is nowhere to be seen. I told the biologist in Palmer this and they said momma was probably a meal now. We did not give those two calves much longer probably a bear snack that night. It is a scenario played out in 16B all the time... the bears need to be put into check over there and predator control is the only way of doing it.

    What I find very humourous the same folks that said Cori Rossi had no buiseness making wildlife management decisions because he had no degree. Are sitting here saying the predator control program is wrong when biologist are saying it is needed. I strongly encourage any of you to contact the bios in Palmer and talk to them about unit 16B bear issues. You will come away with a different attitude that is for sure.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    nor does it change the fact, that a few years ago, there were no groups, wearing petroleum based clothing, lamenting for the sake of a wolf or bear, and yet they did just fine with heavy hunting, and control.
    True. The human population was far smaller, generally nomadic, was far less technologically advanced, and subject to disease and biological/environmental controls that today's human population is able to overcome largely independent of the environment. Now we have groups wearing petroleum based clothing, lamenting for the sake that they want to kill unlimited numbers moose irrespective of the fact that the ecosystem is only capable of producing a finite moose population. Regardless of the number of wolves and bears we also kill, the fact remains that the carrying capacity of the ecosystem is finite.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    nor does it change the fact, that a few years ago, there were no groups, wearing petroleum based clothing, lamenting for the sake of a wolf or bear, and yet they did just fine with heavy hunting, and control.
    Rep headed your way (and probably many more until I have to "spread it around"). Welcome back, Vince! Stick around.

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