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Thread: H.B + S.D Advice Please

  1. #1
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    Default H.B + S.D Advice Please

    Hi there,

    I'm new to this site and first want to say how great it is to see a forum that is actualy full of solid advice and ideas!
    Last year I moved full time to a remote trapline on the Stikine river in Canada (I'm Canadian) Fairly close to Wrangell Alasaka.

    My question is i'm looking for a solid all around boat to get around, trap, hunt, fish, etc.. I have a 16' aluminium open skiff with a jet outboard and don't like my fuel consumption, weight etc...(not really a one man boat if your stuck) !

    I got really excited when I saw the H.B freighter's with the 23hp Mud buddy surface drive motors on this forum but I'm not sure if they have the power to move me up river against 15mph river flow? Of course it's not all like that but the Stikine is considered the fastest navigable river in Canada so she is a fast one.
    When I've asked around here in Canada no one seemed to think that combination would work due to the low Horsepower and the displacment hull of the canoe.(But no one here actually has used one!)
    Now I would like to turn to the people that ACTUALLY use this combination to tell me if it's a good idea or not!
    I would appreciate any input positive or negative on the use of this combination in my situation.

    Thanks in advance!

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    I, too, am curious about the opinions of the guys who have driven the HBs/MB 18s and 23s for several years. I got my HB/MB23 together this September and haven't seen current more than 7-8mph so far, and that wasn't any challenge.

    By the way, the HBs are not actually operating in displacement mode when being pushed 10 - 12 mph or more. The bow elevates and a portion of the bottom isn't in the water. The HBs are flat bottom boats with 3 keels and a bit of rocker. I'd call it semi-planning.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about others, but I've run a section of river called "swamp rapids" for the last two seasons. A friend on the forum knows of this spot. It's a 150 yd. straight shot of the fastest water I've ever run. With a heavy load, I swear.......it felt like I was only making about 2 mph against that particular section. This was with about 1,600 lbs aboard. It's nerve-racking to say the least to be pushing a heavy load against a wild and turbulent chute of water like the one I've described. Keep the weight down and it can be done. If I didn't drop some weight at the mouth of this river, I doubt I would have made it. Once my boat climbed up that section, and back onto flat water again, all was well. The standing waves with extremely fast water is quite an obstacle to overcome, but you HAVE TO choose the right route as sometimes you only have one choice. I can't speak for the Hudson bay, but I've run this section with a skinny transom, and a wide transom. The wide transom canoe didn't dig down as much. I like a nice wide/flat transom much better now as I stay on top of the section much better. The fast water combined with full power will lift you on top and plane out the boat better if you have a wide transom. Surface drives have good low end torque for these type of conditions. I don't really have any coverage of that spot, and probably never will, but I do have one video running a less demanding river so you can see the boat. The transoms of my canoes are 38 inches wide:



    Here's a moderately fast section of whitewater that I was getting on top of with no load:



    I've notice in fast sections of water with a wide transom as compared to my older skinny transom canoe, I can turn the motor full turn at top speed and not loose control of the canoe. It actually slices the water and skips on top instead of digging in:
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I have full turned my HB at 17mph, with no loss of control or drama. I don't consider its transom ... 26" ... to be "skinny" ... I like the hydro-dynamic efficiency of the Y-stern. And, generally, longer bottoms .. 21' in the HB's case ... have more flotation/speed than shorter ones.

    And, to quote our forum member, mainer_in_alaska, referring to FamilyMan's Scott Albany in discussion of the stern of the "Mystery Tank":


    "Yes, I like the stern design of your canoe much better, Scott makes a stern built to provide the Albany with exceptional performance with a set of oars. You could easily drift down river with your canoe, and have no disruption of the current. Your stern also allows more water to reach an outboard lifted high with less cavitation."

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ighlight=canoe

    Has mainer's opinion changed? (Mine has frequently changed on many subjects since I was a cheechako 30+ years ago.)

    I know of 4 freight canoe enthusiasts on this forum (there may be more I'm unaware of) who are running Scott HBs and S-D motors with excellent and enthusiastic results. BUT, I still haven't heard an answer to the Ibow's question that started this thread;

    "I got really excited when I saw the H.B freighter's with the 23hp Mud buddy surface drive motors on this forum but I'm not sure if they have the power to move me up river against 15mph river flow?"

    I'm certain a HB/MB23 will move upstream against a 15 mph current ... how fast is the question and how big a load. The big props on the mud motors are extremely powerful. I have a new 12.25" prop for my rig. The one on the motor currently is an 11X10. The 12.25 prop is said to increase power ... improving hole-shot and increasing top speed. Of course, I can't try it till next season.


    There are a number of S-D motors with hp in the 50+hp range, but they are much larger, heavier and unsuitable for most freight canoes, although the Scott James Bay is rated for a 40 - 50hp motor. I would hope someone can chime in with the answer to the question.

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    Member mainer_in_ak's Avatar
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    nope, my previous opinion is still relatively intact. Familyman's Scott stern geometry is excellent for traditional outboard motors as it does seem to allow more water for traditional outboard motors that have a lifted transom. I watched him run his 15hp tohatsu motor at a particular height that I thought for sure he'd have cavitation issues, but not the case.....he seemed to always have water feeding his prop.

    I think his canoe would work well with a set of oars instead of a flat stern(especially with weight). After putting a season on my latest canoe, we actually paddled it through some mild chutes of white water and didn't actually use the oars. The ability to paddle my canoe might have been attributed to having no keels though, and almost no weight in the boat. I haven't tried paddling it with any serious weight though. I would have never expected a 54 in. wide canoe to paddle, but we did it. So yes, you learn new things every year. Now having put well over 100 hrs on a surface drive, I tend to like the wider transom much better for surface drives. With the prop being about 29" from the stern on my Copperhead Surface Drive, that flat stern works great in my opinion, and certainly allows for a faster speed as the extra wide transom doesn't dig into the water. Regardless of his EXACT question about a specific freighter canoe, I did answer it, and if I can run fast chutes of water with a 12 horse surface drive/ 18 ft. freighter canoe, I see no reason that a 23 horse mudbuddy couldn't.

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    Geeze,

    Looking over that thread from over a year ago you provided a link to Rick, a few things have changed. I thought a 20 foot mold would have been the way to go, but after discussing the mold geometry with a physics and calculus guy from my university, we ended up on 22ft.-22ft 6in. as the final dimensions of the larger canoe, but the smaller model will stay the same 18 ft. as my rebuilt canoe. An elder from my tribe and I were talking over the summer when I went to Maine to get my new tribal I.D. card. He said he's seen a canoe similar to mine in pictures from his Indian friend who lived in Moose Factory, and also saw them as a boy near my grandmother's reservation (Eel Ground Res.) in New Brunswick. Glad the boat ended up in my hands, the old ways need to be brought into the next generation because of our excessive fuel prices. It'll be a great alternative to a small jet boat.

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    I have an HB with 23hp MB. I can tell you that it pushes up the Tanana from George lake no problem. I would only be guessing , but my estimation of the current speed is 15 mph for about 1 mile in the chute coming back to the boat launch..Have made 3 trips to and from the lake and it is stable and FUN !!! Best boating guys...

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    The 38" transom on the Mystery Tank certainly does "dig into the water," as do the sterns on all prop driven boats under power. The way the boat/load is trimmed has as much to do with the attitude of the boat under power. And perhaps we should arrange to test your hypothesis next summer ... a Woodstock for freighter canoes ... or perhaps, Mudstock.

    I don't think the row boat stern on the 53" beam- 18'2" Tank will run appreciably more shallow at the stern, under power, than the 56" beam - 21'6" Hudson Bay with the Y-stern. And, of course , you can't be referring to the HB's 26" transom as "skinny". I'd call the 12" transom of the 19' Grumman skinny, and the 18" transom of the 17' Osagian not so skinny The HB was designed with the assistance of the Cree Indians in Northern Quebec for their needs ... somebody knew what they were doing.

    By the way ... went out to the shop and measured the distance from the very rear of the bottom (where the Y-stern turns up to the transom) to the prop on my motor ... 48". I'm surprised it's that far.

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    Thanks for all the info! I sure wish I could see one in real life before purchasing but I have to place my order for (something) before I re-enter civilization for resupply in May.
    If life were perfect I wouldn't even need to think of such a purchase but what happened is that this rare opportunity(in Canada) to live year around (legaly) on a trapline in an untouched piece wilderness came up and I said nuts to the world, gave up my career(that I never really liked) sunk every penny I had into this place and the equipment(I thought) I needed lol and came up here sight unseen! to do what I've always wanted to in the first place.
    Turns out the two major tributary's that make up the vast majority of my trapline(which extends all the way to Alaska) is sitting on some geothermal hot spring! So I find out I won't be skidooing my trapline at all! No one around has even seen one of the tributary's due to it's remotness and the other they won't go near in winter because it doesn't freeze and if it does it's poor ice...
    So, I'm not going to give up I'm just going to find a way around this challenge and when I saw the HB SD combo I thought it might be the answer. I'm sure the MudBuddy can chew through a bit of slush and if I come upon a ice jam I'll winch the whole rig over and carry on because of it's light weight.
    I could go on and on about the folly of my first year here but that would be off topic. I just want to trade my cold aluminiun gas guzzler in to buy something that'll help me make a small living...
    Thanks again for the posts and video!
    Take care

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    In the last few months, I've talked to the owner of a HB/MB who has used his rig in the canyon on the Copper River at Chitna. Now, I consider that piece of water to be quite fast, and dangerous, particularly for amateurs. The current must be approaching 15mph. The owner/operator of that rig said it was comfortable, stable and had plenty of power. That canyon is a very impressive place.

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    Thanks again..

    Rick, where did you get the 12.25 prop, from MudBuddy website? I might as well start off with that one.

    Thanks

  12. #12

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    The Y stern of the Scott HP plus the self draining splash tray. Is what I liked about the HB I wanted something for following seas
    in lakes like Skilak & Tustemena . Anchored up all night with stern out the boat stayed dry in pretty good waves. Following seas
    did not want to shove it sideways.

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    Ibow ... I understand that Mud Buddy's "Big Blade" 12.25" prop is, or may be, standard on the Mini23. Changes were made to the production Mini frames beginning in August to allow the Big Blade. Mine, produced in late August, came with the then standard 11 X 10 prop, and the Big Blade as my spare, to be tried later. (You should have a spare prop, as well as a spare drive belt, among other things, in your tool kit.) I think the performance of my MB23 with the 11 X 10 has been excellent. By comparison to the HB/MB, my faithful Grumman 19'/Yamaha15 was a Matchbox toy, although a nice one. But, the Big Blade offers a power and speed increase, I'm told. Once I have a chance to try mine next season, I'll report the comparison, here. Happy trails.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Ibow when you get to Wrangell look me up for coffee.I'm over J&W on front st.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Amigo Will,

    Will do!,
    Great to have contact there in case I can't make it back home with the H.B. + S.D.! Might not make it next summer 'cause I've got a pile of stuff to do here seeing as I've just moved here plus I have to start generating income...no income = no gas it seems lol. But summer after that I think I'll be due for a little escape!
    Thanks!

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    Ibow ... Are you living on your trapline currently? And, I gather, have power and the internet? Pretty skookum. A picture or two would be appreciated.

  17. #17

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    Ibow,


    If you go to youtube and search for “mud buddy tetonoutdoors”, you’ll find an interesting 10:52 video of a Mud Buddy pushing a 17 foot boat through ice at least an inch thick. The introductory caption to his video says, “Just got this 4 wheel drive outboard, a 45 hp Mud Buddy Hyper Drive”...


    I’ve passed through the Wrangell and Petersburg area many times. Very impressive. Petersburg was founded about a century ago by a Norwegian named Peter who thought the water and mountains there resembled those of his home town in Norway.


    Happy New Year!

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    Those are some pretty cool videos. I would think you would need a tough prop to stand up to the ice....the blades in my blender get chewed up by ice anyway. I grew up in Florida so my answer to that stuff is an airboat but they are a bit more expensive and noisier.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

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    Hi there,

    After farting around with trying to figure out how to post pics on the forum I found out I can't yet LOL. I need to make more post's I believe.
    I will ASAP.

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