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Thread: 2012 SE AK Charter Halibut Limits

  1. #1

    Default 2012 SE AK Charter Halibut Limits

    With a rise in abundance in 2c, SE charter anglers will most likely see a more generous limit on halibut. That is a big change after the giant miscalculation (intentional?) in 2011 resulted in the SE charter fleet catching only 51% of it's allocation.

    They are looking at a reverse slot limit. A limit of 1 per day, of less than 45" or greater than 68". That's basically a 45lb halibut and a 140lb halibut. All breeders between 45lbs and 140lbs will have to be returned to the water so they can spawn to keep the stocks healthy. I feel this is a good step to bringing halibut closer to sustainability and providing the charter fleet with limits they can remain competitive with other areas. Kudos to whoever came up with this. Perhaps with Fugvlog going to the big house, more sanity is being restored.

    With the improved halibut limits and another great king season on the horizon, SE AK is definitely going to a great place to be in 2012.

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    270ti, this is a small step in the right direction.But " All breeders between 45lbs and 140lbs will have to be returned to the water so they can spawn to keep the stocks healthy." How many of the longliners will be tossing 45lbs to 140lbs halibut, those are thier money fish! So, SE charters get a better cut of crust,or maybe it's the kiss this time!

  3. #3

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    It's a small step, but at least it's a step. The longliners have a big vested interest in the resource, so I'm trusting they'll start banding together to protect the breeders, or they'll pay for it in the future.

    And for those that think we'll all bring in 140lb + halibut every day, and wipe out the breeders.. It won't happen. Very few over 140lbs get caught. In SE we chase salmon for the better part of the day, and then go halibut fishing after we've gotten limits of salmon. But the possibility of keeping a barn door will keep customers coming to SE AK. When they don't even have the possibility, they look elsewhere.

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  5. #5

    Default reality check

    To the guy who hopes the longline sector will have a slot limit too:

    Seriously, what more would you like to see the longliners give up for conservation?

    The longline sector has 'given up' an 80% reduction in their catch in the last few years in order to preserve the resource. Meanwhile the charters have exceeded their GHL every single year but one for the last 7 years. Which party in this scenario do you think has made a greater sacrifice for the conservation of the resource?

    How much more would the longliners have to give up in 2C to keep you happy?

    What the longliners have done is the equivalent of going from a 2 fish per day limit to a one fish every-other-day limit. If you want a reciprocal regulation that affects these sectors equally, that should be it.

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    AKJOB, So just how much less halibut did the longliners take last year compared to 1980, 1981, and 1983? Those are the last three years before the allowed over harvest started! Last years TAC was 2.4 million pounds and in 80-82 it was about 3.5 million pound. So that might just be fair to offset those 11 million pound years when the fox was running the hen house!

    IFQ's might just have been the best thing for the comm fishermen, and the worst thing for the halibut stock!

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    clearly the link i posted didn't get absorbed. AKJOB, clearly the longline sector has taken massive reductions for conservation and it is time for the charter fleet to accept their responsiblity as a stakeholder and keep within their allocation, which they have done this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKCAPT View Post
    clearly the link i posted didn't get absorbed. AKJOB, clearly the longline sector has taken massive reductions for conservation and it is time for the charter fleet to accept their responsiblity as a stakeholder and keep within their allocation, which they have done this year.
    Thank you AKCAPT -

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKCAPT View Post
    clearly the link i posted didn't get absorbed. AKJOB, clearly the longline sector has taken massive reductions for conservation and it is time for the charter fleet to accept their responsiblity as a stakeholder and keep within their allocation, which they have done this year.
    Amen AKCAPT!

    I'm really glad to hear this sentiment of shared conservation coming from members of the charter fleet, and I hope this attitude gets embraced by both fleets. Maybe there's hope for halibut after all?

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    Sorry AKCAPT, I know what the guys in 2C are going through hard to fill the books not knowing whats going to happen to the limit. I hope all works out for them! I know the bookings are going through the roof, at least in Homer. As a excharter and now a commercial fisherman and sport angler I know if your happy with crumbs, crumbs you shall have! Pointing so much blame at the charters when most, not all but most of the damage has been at the hands of management allowing over fishing for to long. I just have a hard time with a slot limit for only one user group! If the slot limit is for the health of the stock then the slot limit sould be for all users. As a angler I will go where the limit is the highest. You AKCAPT are in 3A and 3A is the place to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    Sorry AKCAPT, I know what the guys in 2C are going through hard to fill the books not knowing whats going to happen to the limit. I hope all works out for them! I know the bookings are going through the roof, at least in Homer. As a excharter and now a commercial fisherman and sport angler I know if your happy with crumbs, crumbs you shall have! Pointing so much blame at the charters when most, not all but most of the damage has been at the hands of management allowing over fishing for to long. I just have a hard time with a slot limit for only one user group! If the slot limit is for the health of the stock then the slot limit sould be for all users. As a angler I will go where the limit is the highest. You AKCAPT are in 3A and 3A is the place to be.
    Could you reference where the agencies are saying the decline is due to overharvest. I am not sure that the cause of the decline has been identified. Given the biomass was at a very high level some decline is anticipated and the biomass is still higher than historical lows. Just wondering how you came to the overharvest conclusion.

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    Nerka, Do you beleve that the agencies will ever admit that they allowed overharvest? When the fishery went to IFQ it allowed fishermen to target fish in a way that has harmed the stock. When you target 40lb and up for so long they get harder to find, leaving small females and older small males. Taking out to many larger fish 40lbs and up has given other species to expand and compete for the food and may now be causing slower growth rates. So back to the slot limit, if it is for the health of the stock great then the slot limit should be for all user groups. If it is just to regulate the charter harvest then it is just Bovine Secretion! Or at least call it what it is! No smoke and mirrors!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    Nerka, Do you beleve that the agencies will ever admit that they allowed overharvest? When the fishery went to IFQ it allowed fishermen to target fish in a way that has harmed the stock. When you target 40lb and up for so long they get harder to find, leaving small females and older small males. Taking out to many larger fish 40lbs and up has given other species to expand and compete for the food and may now be causing slower growth rates. So back to the slot limit, if it is for the health of the stock great then the slot limit should be for all user groups. If it is just to regulate the charter harvest then it is just Bovine Secretion! Or at least call it what it is! No smoke and mirrors!
    So the answer is no you have no scientific evidence of overharvest - however, for the record I know lots of agencies that indicate an overharvest is taking place in a variety of fisheries. It is usually the user group that denies it. For example the eastcoast cod fishery, the early run Kenai chinook return to Slikok Creek and the list goes on. I am not saying your hypothesis is not correct - I do not know. However a claim of cause and effect requires some evidence other than speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 270ti
    That is a big change after the giant miscalculation (intentional?) in 2011 resulted in the SE charter fleet catching only 51% of it's allocation.
    That "intentional miscalculation" brought charters within their GHL for the first time in 8 years.

    The calculation was based on the prior year charter catch (2010 exceeded GHL). A size limit was then applied to that number of halibut to obtain the harvest level. The resulting allowable harvest was actually higher than 788,000 lbs, giving charters some leadway at 800,554 lbs. The plan did work. Reference 17 CFR 14300.

    Charters had every opportunity to catch the remaining 49% of their allocation. The halibut were there. Some charters just elected to concentrate efforts on salmon...

    "In SE we chase salmon for the better part of the day, and then go halibut fishing after we've gotten limits of salmon." - 270ti

    The 2011 unharvested charter allocation is, on average, equal to about the same amount of unharvested commercial allocation. Funny how 270ti isn't calling what the commercial guys don't harvest "intentional miscalculation" too.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    How many of the longliners will be tossing 45lbs to 140lbs halibut, those are thier money fish!
    Please reference where you are getting that. The data from IPHC shows the average commercial halibut to be under 20 pounds, which is about right according to my own longlining experience from even decades ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    Those are the last three years before the allowed over harvest started! Last years TAC was 2.4 million pounds and in 80-82 it was about 3.5 million pound. So that might just be fair to offset those 11 million pound years when the fox was running the hen house!
    Please reference where you get that. The commercial fishery never exceeded it's allowable catch limits. TAC is based on abundance, which fluxuates and cycles according to many factors, such as age class pass throughs. Commercial harvest increased because of abundance. Furthermore, who "runs the hen house" is dictated by fishery laws like the MSA. Read it.

    By the way, how much 2C charter harvest was there in 80-82? Maybe 150,000 lbs? Perhaps you should say those were the last three years before charter over harvest was allowed, and charters have a lot of cutting to do to make up the offset? After all, they are the only sector that exceeded their harvest levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    I know if your happy with crumbs, crumbs you shall have!
    To imply charters get "crumbs" is ridiculous. They take 65% of the sport fish. The 2C/3A commercial fishery provides halibut to 10 million US consumers, while charters to only 230,000 clients. That's more than 43 times more people using the 2C/3A commercial fishery with only 6 times more halibut. It's no wonder charters lost the "fair and equitable" allocation battle in Federal Court.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    I just have a hard time with a slot limit for only one user group! If the slot limit is for the health of the stock then the slot limit sould be for all users.
    All users should not get those same slot limit regulations, because all users do not hire professional fishing guide services that exceed harvest levels. When you choose to use charter services that have consistently exceeded harvest limits year after year, those are the restrictions you get. Charter vessel anglers fall under charter vessel angler regulations. Nothing to do with other users.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    If the slot limit is for the health of the stock then the slot limit sould be for all users.
    The slot limit is for allocation purposes...to get charters within their harvest limits so they don't force allocation redistribution from other sectors. Yes, slot limits are a way to regulate charter harvest, and that is only one method authorized under law.

    MGH55, rather than continue on with your usual emotion and conjecture, please start backing up your statements with some facts.

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    Grampyfish,
    1. "Please reference where you get that." IPHC records
    2. "The data from IPHC shows the average commercial halibut to be under 20 pounds, which is about right according to my own longlining experience from even decades ago." Then they will not miss them so they can let them spawn and help save the stock!
    3. "The slot limit is for allocation purposes" that was not how it was stated. It was stated as to allow the breading females to spawn for the health of the stock.
    4, "It's no wonder charters lost the "fair and equitable" allocation battle in Federal Court." If all sport fishermen stand together that could change.
    5. Ten million consumers in the USA can afford to pay the price for halibut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55 View Post
    1. "Please reference where you get that." IPHC records
    Where in those records?

    Nothing in the IPHC records show that overharvest was allowed. In fact, they will show commercial harvest was always under quota.

    Reference
    Reference


    Nothing in IPHC records show that the longliner's bread and butter fish are 45-140 pounds. In fact, their studies show the average halibut to be around 20 pounds.

    Reference


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    2. "The data from IPHC shows the average commercial halibut to be under 20 pounds, which is about right according to my own longlining experience from even decades ago." Then they will not miss them so they can let them spawn and help save the stock!
    Where do you get that idea? Do you really think a reverse slot limit would change commercial allocation, or just the amount of fish wasted to achieve that allocation? Longliners have already been cut 80% and they aren't even the one's exceeding their harvest levels, charters are. How much more do you want the commercial fishery to get cut?


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    3. "The slot limit is for allocation purposes" that was not how it was stated. It was stated as to allow the breading females to spawn for the health of the stock.
    Study it a little harder. It is purely an effort generated from charters harvesting only 51% of their allocation. It is an allocation effort to introduce more opportunity for charters than the existing size limit offered. The object is, after last year, to get charters closer to GHL. GHL is allocation-based, not spawner based.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    4, "It's no wonder charters lost the "fair and equitable" allocation battle in Federal Court." If all sport fishermen stand together that could change.
    You fail to understand that all sport fishermen don't have a complaint with the fishery. We find the fishing spectacular. It is charters and their affiliates complaining. In fact private sport fishermen take more issue with charters than they ever did with longliners. Not to mention we sport fishermen don't control the resource...all US citizens do. And it is all US citizens who must stand together for their halibut, not for the charter industry's halibut. US citizens are the owners of the resource...most whom access their halibut via a commecial fishermen.


    Quote Originally Posted by MGH55
    5. Ten million consumers in the USA can afford to pay the price for halibut.
    Just like 230,000 charter clients can afford to pay for the luxury of professional fishing services. The difference being 10 million consumers make up 43 times more people than 230,000 charter clients. And those 43 times more people only get 6 times more halibut than charters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    In fact private sport fishermen take more issue with charters than they ever did with longliners.
    As a sportsfisherman, I say not true.... Speak for yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post


    In fact private sport fishermen take more issue with charters than they ever did with longliners. .


    Speak for yourself, thirty years of fishing up here I've never had issues with the charters. Longliners, I have an issue with.
    Your bait stinks and your boat is ugly

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishGod View Post
    Speak for yourself, thirty years of fishing up here I've never had issues with the charters. Longliners, I have an issue with.
    This is a no win discussion as no one has a survey or historical perspective on the testimony given on this subject. However, in the recent discussion of whether private angler should be included I think it is fair to say it is a charter vs private angler debate from what I read and hear.

    Look, if the sport fishery wants more than what they are allocated they should fight for it and with 6 members on the council from the State of Alaska I would think if the points are valid they will prevail. So far that has not happened. What has happened as Grampyfishes points out is that the charters exceeded what they were allowed and some action was taken. Plain and simple.

    Beating each other up on this forum with saying the same thing over and over proves nothing useful. If one does not like the allocation go for a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    This is a no win discussion . .

    Beating each other up on this forum with saying the same thing over and over proves nothing useful. If one does not like the allocation go for a change.
    Now that's what I call cutting to the chase . .

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