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Thread: the alaska river guide

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    Member scott_rn's Avatar
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    Default the alaska river guide

    I've been reading jettmar's book lately, so I was a little disappointed to hear she made the news.
    http://www.adn.com/2011/12/22/222980...nd-author.html

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    "Innocent until proven guilty".

    Mike
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    Member scott_rn's Avatar
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    Yeah, I almost included some comment about there being two sides to every story. It's interesting that there no mention of charging the actual client who took the fossil/tusk.

    The alaska dispatch article linked to the adn article has more detail. Is alaska dispatch a reliable news source? After all, they quoted alaskahippie

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    I heard that!
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    If true it's very sad. Most river guides I have ever met are stewards of the rivers they love and would not rape the resource.....as alleged.

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    I'm with Mike. What tweaks my beans are the people in the ADN Blog wow! I guess I need not say more.

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    Not a word. Picked up on that myself.

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    Say it ain't true!! A greenie??!!^(!''%!!?? I thought it was only those aweful hunting guides that did such horrible things... For the love of money... How else you going to book the trip... (Throw him a bone?? Looks like that was what was done...)

    This whole thing remains to be seen. The ADN and Dispatch are alas not much more than reporter blogs. They are reporting the fact of the accusation. It all remains to be seen.... Karen's book is great! She and her book will weather this trouble how ever it turns out.

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    I was on the Nowitna river a few years ago and there were some folks finding tusk etc. I never even considered it a problem to take the tusks .... These folks had metal rods about 6 feet long that they shoved into the mud and when they hit something, I guess it was a bone or tusk.. They did not attempt to hide what they were doing as I asked them "what they were probing for".
    I was just not aware of the rules and not really knowing why they would have such a rule anyway..
    who made it not ok to get that stuff??? How else they gonna get it to museums etc. if folks dont dig it up??? Just dont see any enviromental problems, and no living animals are being bothered... Someone just wanting to control ???
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
    I was on the Nowitna river a few years ago and there were some folks finding tusk etc. I never even considered it a problem to take the tusks .... These folks had metal rods about 6 feet long that they shoved into the mud and when they hit something, I guess it was a bone or tusk.. They did not attempt to hide what they were doing as I asked them "what they were probing for".
    I was just not aware of the rules and not really knowing why they would have such a rule anyway..
    who made it not ok to get that stuff??? How else they gonna get it to museums etc. if folks dont dig it up??? Just dont see any enviromental problems, and no living animals are being bothered... Someone just wanting to control ???
    I'm with you on this one. Seems really silly.

    Reminds me of a float hunt I did on the Noatak a long time ago. One of the guys in our group (a friend, this was not a guided trip)... anyway this guy picked up a dropped caribou antler and when we got back to Kotzebue, a ranger checked us out and was going to confiscate the antler. I asked him why and he said there was a regulation that didn't allow us to take dropped antlers out of the preserve. I directed his attention to the umpteen caribou racks and the pile of meat we had from the ten or twelve bulls we shot, and said, what's the difference? He said that the shrews and voles counted on the nutrients from the antlers. So I asked him what he did with the confiscated antlers? He said he usually flew over the preserve and tossed them out the window of the airplane. That's when I asked him what would happen if the antler fell on one of those shrews or voles he was protecting... he just shook his head, walked away, and yes, he even let us keep the antler (GASP!)

    I can scarcely live with the massive ecological damage we caused by removing that antler from the Noatak National Preserve all those years ago...

    Sometimes the regulations we create just make us look foolish.

    -Mike
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    "I can scarcely live with the massive ecological damage we caused by removing that antler from the Noatak National Preserve all those years ago..." -------- Well... As long as you learned your lesson. I guess we can let it go this time.

    It does sound like a bunch of silliness, but part of the problem is these kinds of rules are created by a large federal government agency that means for them to apply first of all to places that receive so many visitors they may actually be needed. I personally have appreciated these rules in places like Grand Canyon, where a hundred thousand of people regularly pass through. If even 10% of them took a little artifact now and then, there would be none left for others to see. But problems arise when some national rules get strictly enforced in remote places in Alaska. What seems logical in a busy AZ park, somehow seems illogical when applied to remote AK.

    I remember growing up in Anchorage driving motorcycles and snow machines over Power Line Pass into Indian, and then riding all over what is now Chugach State Park, and thinking nothing of the damage a few spinning tracks were doing to the "fragile alpine vegetation." Same thing in the park behind what is now Service High School. And I remember how incensed I was that the cross country skiers were confiscating "our" trails, and kicking us off them after all the years we had had free reign to do what we wanted, where we wanted! What was Alaska coming to?!!!

    But years later I came to realize what was fine to do when only a few people were doing it, was no longer fine for thousands of people to do. Anchorage had outgrown the liberties of small town AK. Sadly, that will be the case in many other areas of AK in the next decades.

    The issue we have today is determining how stringently to enforce rules in remote AK that were designed for no longer remote America. People are genuinely concerned about protecting what little wild paces they have left. Much of that concern gets carried over to areas where it night not belong.... yet.

    I sincerely wish the best for Karen.

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    some native tribes consider these artifacts as sacred, and to be left undisturbed. What if they found Native remains from an ancient grave? Would it be acceptable to loot that? How do native folks who live near that region feel about this? Looting a wild landscape of it's artifacts isn't acceptable from my perspective.

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    What if they found Native remains from an ancient grave
    ?
    If you get a permit, you can dig up graves of natives... I watched a show just the other day of some group digging up an ancient Alaska grave yard.. I guess it makes all the difference if you can get a permit... The remains are of once living life no matter who digs them up. either in the deserts of africa, egypt, or Alaska.. is or are they less sacred for science?
    ..
    I can see Jim Strutz point though about the number of users in the various parks and the impact that has or would have.
    but a tusk buried in the mud ? or an antler laying on the surface? If they find a dinosaur bone in the rock of the Grand canyon, somebody is going to get a permit to dig it out and study it.. Its just who is who that gets to dig and harvest artifacts and bones.
    disturbing the resting place of the human, mastodon or caribou drop is .. well still disturbing it.....
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

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    But....there is a big difference when you are a commercial operator, you know it is illegal, and then you help someone sidestep the law for personal gain. I have trouble finding a comparison between that and for example someone who looks the other way when their kid brings back a fossil, bald eagle feather, or whatever.

    It will be interesting how this plays out in court when all of the evidence is presented. I'm sure the ADN will have blow-by-blow coverage.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdstrike View Post
    ...I'm sure the ADN will have blow-by-blow coverage.
    ...and I'm sure it will be totally objective reporting...
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Strutz View Post
    "I can scarcely live with the massive ecological damage we caused by removing that antler from the Noatak National Preserve all those years ago..." -------- Well... As long as you learned your lesson. I guess we can let it go this time.

    It does sound like a bunch of silliness, but part of the problem is these kinds of rules are created by a large federal government agency that means for them to apply first of all to places that receive so many visitors they may actually be needed. I personally have appreciated these rules in places like Grand Canyon, where a hundred thousand of people regularly pass through. If even 10% of them took a little artifact now and then, there would be none left for others to see. But problems arise when some national rules get strictly enforced in remote places in Alaska. What seems logical in a busy AZ park, somehow seems illogical when applied to remote AK.

    I remember growing up in Anchorage driving motorcycles and snow machines over Power Line Pass into Indian, and then riding all over what is now Chugach State Park, and thinking nothing of the damage a few spinning tracks were doing to the "fragile alpine vegetation." Same thing in the park behind what is now Service High School. And I remember how incensed I was that the cross country skiers were confiscating "our" trails, and kicking us off them after all the years we had had free reign to do what we wanted, where we wanted! What was Alaska coming to?!!!

    But years later I came to realize what was fine to do when only a few people were doing it, was no longer fine for thousands of people to do. Anchorage had outgrown the liberties of small town AK. Sadly, that will be the case in many other areas of AK in the next decades.

    The issue we have today is determining how stringently to enforce rules in remote AK that were designed for no longer remote America. People are genuinely concerned about protecting what little wild paces they have left. Much of that concern gets carried over to areas where it night not belong.... yet.

    I sincerely wish the best for Karen.
    That story reminds me of the Sinkyone Wilderness in California, it was declared a wilderness area by the state, when really it is an area that was logged over, and the creeks and rivers were mostly old sawmill sites.

    Robert

  17. #17

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    I was a little disappointed to see the headline in the AK Dispatch but will let the court process play itself out before jumping to any conclusions.

    Regarding paleontological resources in general, they're protected on any federal land. Doesn't matter if it's a national wildlife refuge, national preserve, BLM land, a national forest, etc. Fossils are protected on AK state lands as well. That doesn't mean you can't collect them but you'd better have a permit first and your justification usually has to be for scientific purposes. I do understand Mike's point about the antler. There are thousands of shed antlers in some parts of Alaska on national preserve land, what the difference between picking up a shed versus taking home an antler from a caribou you legally harvested on that same land? This is just one of those cases where, except for sport hunting and trapping, national preserves are managed under the same regulations as national parks. Yes, I realize ANILCA makes some exceptions for national parks up here compared to those in the lower 48 but for 'natural features' the regs are universal, whether it's an antler, a skull, a rock, a fossil, and so on. So since Noatak Preserve is part fo the larger national park system a shed caribou antler in the Noatak falls under the same regs as an elk shed in Grand Canyon NP or a bison skull in Badlands NP or a piece of granite from the rubble pile below Mt. Rushmore. Best advice I guess is if in doubt ask before collecting.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    It's always interesting to observe the differences in civility between forums. The alleged perpetrator hes already been lynched by the conspiracy theorists over here: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...e-REAL-PIRATES
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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    It's always interesting to observe the differences in civility between forums. The alleged perpetrator hes already been lynched by the conspiracy theorists over here: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...e-REAL-PIRATES
    Thank you for bringing that to our attention. It has been dealt with in accordance with our forum rules.

    Folks, we really count on our members reporting posts to us that don't line up with our rules. I realize that at times it looks like we play favorites, but I assure you that it only appears that way. Truth is we cannot read everything that's posted and some things slip by unreported. We rely on your help in reporting these things to us so we can clean them up.

    Your help is most appreciated!

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
    Web Address: http://alaskaoutdoorssupersite.com/hunt-planner/
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    "Dream big, and dare to fail." -Norman Vaughan
    "I have climbed my mountain, but I must still live my life." - Tenzig Norgay

  20. #20
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    Default Delete this thread

    Nothing positive is being established here, and this thread has no connection with obtaining information about the outdoors. Forget it, press on... and share some good ol rafting info.

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