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Thread: DLP? Not! ANC resident skates on illegal hunting charge

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Default DLP? Not! ANC resident skates on illegal hunting charge

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    yet if I shot a moose that was 45 inches 2 borwtines, and salvaged all the meat and hide and everything I would get thrown in jail and loose my hunting right for 10 years and my truck gun money and what ever else I had with me....that makes a whole lot of sense.
    Eccleasties 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, There for the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

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    Man those 3 cubs really got the short end of the stick banished to Detroit...

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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    I was wondering what the state valued a grizzly/brown bear at. Now I know: $1300. If I was a non-resident and read that after paying a hefty price for a guided bear hunt, I'd feel cheated.

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    Member Milo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    Man those 3 cubs really got the short end of the stick banished to Detroit...
    No kidding, according to the study cited in the article "The sows in that 7-year-long study gave birth to 148 cubs. Ninety nine of them died in their first year of life. Of the 49 that survived, 20 more died the next year"

    I think that is on par with growing up in Detroit.
    Death is like an old whore in a bar--I'll buy her a drink but I won't go upstairs with her.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Laws only have backbone if plea bargaining is left out of whole deal.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Laws only have backbone if plea bargaining is left out of whole deal.
    True enough. But before the plea bargaining must come the charges. This guy wasn't charged with one fifth of the violations he should have been.
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    True enough. But before the plea bargaining must come the charges. This guy wasn't charged with one fifth of the violations he should have been.
    Yeah, seems to me also, that guy was FAR over the line, in about every way,....unreal,
    didn't he basically, "Poach a Bear,... a Sow w/cubs,...stashed the hide/lied to officers,... wow,

    and I'm not imagining accusation, he revealed his own stuff,... so he still has his rifle, half his fine suspended,....?
    amazing, maybe I missed something in that story ??

    From the article:
    "Garst pitched the judge his story that it was all a big mistake; that he'd shot the sow by accident thinking he was shooting a large, male bear that had been causing problems. The sentence makes it appear Judge Olsen didn't give great weight to that argument."

    Sounds to me like the total opposite, the Judge completely gave weight to his story, let the guy slide like crazy
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    I don't know that I would call that justice but if I ever need a lawyer I would want his
    Semper Fi and God Bless

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    I was wondering what the state valued a grizzly/brown bear at. Now I know: $1300. If I was a non-resident and read that after paying a hefty price for a guided bear hunt, I'd feel cheated.
    Umm, that's an "interesting" opinion Matt. You think non-resident tags are in any way meant to "pay" for the "value" of the animal? And you think the services of an experienced guide are free?
    Inspiration is simply the momentary cessation of stupidity.

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    Member DucksAndDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Umm, that's an "interesting" opinion Matt. You think non-resident tags are in any way meant to "pay" for the "value" of the animal? And you think the services of an experienced guide are free?

    It most certainly pays for the value of the animal. Would you pay an experienced waterfowl guide anything close to what you'd pay a brown bear guide for the same amount of time spent in the field? Of course not. That's just the name of the game. Look at trophy fees in Africa - they're per animal. I'm not saying that the guide services are free, but the prices for guided hunts most definitely reflect the game intended to be harvested. Also, there are different prices for different tags.

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    Member PG13's Avatar
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    I think the sentence was quite lenient but it seems like this bozo will probably violate his probation and hopefully the other charges will resurface and bury him. Best case scenario is he straightens out but if not, see above.
    Go Big Red!

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    The Natives that almost slaughtered an entire herd of caribou were given the glad-hand, why should this guy be any different? And in his defense, bears are more dangerous than caribou.

    Personally I think it is a crime the bears near the city and its subdivisions aren't killed off, one day a child will be killed and eaten directly because of this lilly-livered temperament shown here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DucksAndDogs View Post
    It most certainly pays for the value of the animal. Would you pay an experienced waterfowl guide anything close to what you'd pay a brown bear guide for the same amount of time spent in the field? Of course not. That's just the name of the game. Look at trophy fees in Africa - they're per animal. I'm not saying that the guide services are free, but the prices for guided hunts most definitely reflect the game intended to be harvested. Also, there are different prices for different tags.
    Sorry DucksAndDogs, not even close. Please go back and re-read Matt's post to see the context in which I posted. First of all, he said that the cost of a guided bear hunt should be $1300, based on a (rather arbitrary) Court figure, whereas we know that the tag is a small part of the total cost of the hunt; most of the cost is based on services provided. None of the guide's cost, outside of the tag, is based on the value of the dead animal itself, although some of it may be based on the difficulty of finding or hunting it. Second, the Court's figure, being rather arbitrary, is not really a valid measurement of the animal's value (as it's primarily punitive rather than truly compensatory). Third, the cost of the tag itself is not based on the animal's value, it's mostly arbitrary and only very loosely based on market prices (as many of us have already complained on other threads).

    (No, despite popular opinion, market prices do NOT tend to match inherent values, any more than a corporation's book value matches its market value. Attempting to correlate the two is a common accounting fallacy, which leads to inflated prices without any change in basis. Our current recession demonstrates this fallacy in action.)

    To address the points in your post (separately from Matt's), the price differential between waterfowl and bear guides is obviously not based on the guide's experience level, but it is also not based on a dead animal's value, rather it is based on the market demand for a particular experience by the client. The client is paying for the service, not for the animal. Also, trophy fees in Africa are not comparable to license and tag fees in most US states, because the tax and revenue sharing structures are so different. (Although that is slowly starting to change, as some US states have recently started to change their non-resident pricing structures.) In effect, hunters in Africa are paying a much larger share of their costs towards the value of the animal itself, while hunters in Alaska and most other states are paying most of their total costs towards the guide's services.

    Finally, the basis for a penalty fee is not the same as for a license fee, comparing the two is a logical fallacy. Even if we call the penalty fee compensatory, it's still almost wholly unrelated to real costs, while license fees are at least intended to relate to the state's costs for resource management and administration, even when they completely fail to match that simple standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    The Natives that almost slaughtered an entire herd of caribou were given the glad-hand, why should this guy be any different? And in his defense, bears are more dangerous than caribou.

    Personally I think it is a crime the bears near the city and its subdivisions aren't killed off, one day a child will be killed and eaten directly because of this lilly-livered temperament shown here.
    Wow... Really? Nothing really more to say on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post

    Personally I think it is a crime the bears near the city and its subdivisions aren't killed off, one day a child will be killed and eaten directly because of this lilly-livered temperament shown here.
    That's the mentality that eventually led to the only remaining bear in California being the one on their State flag.

    I recall back in the 90's a tragic instance of a Brown Bear snatching and killing a child in King Cove. Luckily wiser heads prevailed and not every bear on the Alaska Peninsula was killed off.

    Personally I much prefer bears to subdivisions.
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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    I would actually prefer to see,

    that, "the guy" who leaves the Moose roast out on the back porch,
    then comes out blazing away at a mature Sow,
    somehow missing the THREE Cubs nearby,...

    Would be the one element "Removed," from the equation
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  18. #18
    Member DucksAndDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphina View Post
    Sorry DucksAndDogs, not even close. Please go back and re-read Matt's post to see the context in which I posted. First of all, he said that the cost of a guided bear hunt should be $1300, based on a (rather arbitrary) Court figure, whereas we know that the tag is a small part of the total cost of the hunt; most of the cost is based on services provided. None of the guide's cost, outside of the tag, is based on the value of the dead animal itself, although some of it may be based on the difficulty of finding or hunting it. Second, the Court's figure, being rather arbitrary, is not really a valid measurement of the animal's value (as it's primarily punitive rather than truly compensatory). Third, the cost of the tag itself is not based on the animal's value, it's mostly arbitrary and only very loosely based on market prices (as many of us have already complained on other threads).

    (No, despite popular opinion, market prices do NOT tend to match inherent values, any more than a corporation's book value matches its market value. Attempting to correlate the two is a common accounting fallacy, which leads to inflated prices without any change in basis. Our current recession demonstrates this fallacy in action.)

    To address the points in your post (separately from Matt's), the price differential between waterfowl and bear guides is obviously not based on the guide's experience level, but it is also not based on a dead animal's value, rather it is based on the market demand for a particular experience by the client. The client is paying for the service, not for the animal. Also, trophy fees in Africa are not comparable to license and tag fees in most US states, because the tax and revenue sharing structures are so different. (Although that is slowly starting to change, as some US states have recently started to change their non-resident pricing structures.) In effect, hunters in Africa are paying a much larger share of their costs towards the value of the animal itself, while hunters in Alaska and most other states are paying most of their total costs towards the guide's services.

    Finally, the basis for a penalty fee is not the same as for a license fee, comparing the two is a logical fallacy. Even if we call the penalty fee compensatory, it's still almost wholly unrelated to real costs, while license fees are at least intended to relate to the state's costs for resource management and administration, even when they completely fail to match that simple standard.
    Maybe you should go back and re-read it. I don't recall him ever saying the cost of a guided bear hunt should be $1,300; but, I'm sure he appreciates you putting such ridiculous words in his mouth. Also, despite what you may think about humanity, most non-residents and residents alike aren't paying for just an experience, they're paying to kill an animal. You may love a great experience in the wilderness; but, most people who fork over that kind of money are wanting to shoot an animal, not just go camping. People don't put in for the same tag for years and years just to draw it and go for an 'experience.' They can do that without a tag - they want to kill, it's just a fact.

    My point is that the animal is the driving force for the price of a hunt. You can get the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE (I put it in italics just for you) from the same guide for hunts for two different animals and be charged different prices because of the animal. Same location, same gear, same work, same views, same food, same transportation, etc., different prices. It's just the way it is and guides would be dumb not to try to capitalize on it.

    As for the basis of a penalty fee vs. a license fee - I doubt you'd see a $1,300 fine for shooting a grouse out of season. Seems somewhat compensatory to me.

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Too bad he didn't shoot 160 caribou, he could have got off with out a fine. Maybe he should have said the bear looked sick.

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    As a non-resident having hunted Alaska without a guide several times I come at this with my own view. I would love to hunt/harvest a griz. The state will only allow me to do so if I pay somebody to carry my bags. I can camp, fish, shoot small game, hunt moose/caribou and defend my life from a griz in exactly the same drainage/campsite as a guided operation,but, I cannot INTEND to do so without paying $$$. So I choose to spend my money elsewhere. No sour grapes here-I'd love a griz-just not THAT much!

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