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Thread: How heavy in 454 or 460?

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    Default How heavy in 454 or 460?

    NOTE FROM SNYD: I moved this post and several others to this thread since they really didn't belong in the thread where they started.



    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    On the subject of strength- want to try some of the .454 loads I shoot in my .460 in your SRH?
    Sure, I would be glad to try them. With an SRH in .454, strength is not a concern.
    Last edited by Snyd; 12-11-2011 at 17:25.

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    Default How heavy in 454 or 460?

    I'll send you some of what I've been shooting. I think you will find the loads with the 500 gr bullets esp. interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitworth View Post
    Sure, I would be glad to try them. With an SRH in .454, strength is not a concern.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    .454 loads with a 500 grain bullet. You're ignorance is showing. 400s don't stabilize well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitworth View Post
    .454 loads with a 500 grain bullet. You're ignorance is showing. 400s don't stabilize well.
    Actually I've got these to stabilize in my 4" Redhawk with a 1:16 twist. The Puma is 1:20 I think, I've also read 1:30 so I'm not quite sure.
    RCBS .458 sized to .454 or .452 (have to look at my notes) Barely fits in the cylinder but it does. But, thy jump crimp after 4 rounds. 425 to 435gr depending on the alloy.



    25yds



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    47 yds off rest. I pack this for my berry patch gun or fishing on the creek with the wife. the puma holds 10 in the tube. Not usable in the redhawk though cuz of crimp jump but I've got another style boolit to try that has better crimpt groove. my first test it move .010 after 9 rounds. did not jamb cylinder.

    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    Snyd,
    I think you said before, but where did you get the grips for your Redhawk? I really like the looks of those!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1buba View Post
    Snyd,
    I think you said before, but where did you get the grips for your Redhawk? I really like the looks of those!
    They are Nill Griffe's. I got em off ebay on a "best offer". They retail for like 150 bucks, I think I got em for 65 to my door.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and donít have one, youíll probably never need one again

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    I had reasonable accuracy out to about 25 yards with the 400s in the .454, but on game, they didn't do anything the 360s did better. I even tested 405 grain .44 mag bullets and they performed very poorly -- not only did they not penetrate straight, they didn't fly straight either. I believe there is clearly a point of diminishing returns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitworth View Post
    .454 loads with a 500 grain bullet. You're ignorance is showing. 400s don't stabilize well.
    Want to bet? 500g shoot great from my 460V with gain twist all day long, 600s do tend to tumble though. Now COL will prevent you from even closing the wheel in a Ruger though . . . or give so little powder room that you can't push it fast enough to do anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitworth View Post
    I had reasonable accuracy out to about 25 yards with the 400s in the .454, but on game, they didn't do anything the 360s did better. I even tested 405 grain .44 mag bullets and they performed very poorly -- not only did they not penetrate straight, they didn't fly straight either. I believe there is clearly a point of diminishing returns.
    Yup, then you got to have more case volume to speed things back up, move the fulcrum you get more leverage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Want to bet? 500g shoot great from my 460V with gain twist all day long, 600s do tend to tumble though. Now COL will prevent you from even closing the wheel in a Ruger though . . . or give so little powder room that you can't push it fast enough to do anything.
    Yeah, I'll bet you can't do any more with a 500 grain bullet in the .454 than you can with a 360 from a penetration standpoint. We're not talking 1.8-inch .460 cases here, TV clearly stated that he was running 500s in .454 cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I'll send you some of what I've been shooting. I think you will find the loads with the 500 gr bullets esp. interesting.
    You see, Andy? He was talking about .454 loads, not .460s. Now, without seeing the bullets, I don't know if they have another crimp groove, allowing you to load long, but a 500 grain bullet will eat up a whole lot of case space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yup, then you got to have more case volume to speed things back up, move the fulcrum you get more leverage.


    I have shot the 360 gain WLFN 454 bullet completely through Bison. through and through penetration, so what would be gain by a heavier bullet? A marginally stable bullet will fly threw the air reasonable well , but tumble and not penetrate so well through animal tissue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitworth View Post
    Yeah, I'll bet you can't do any more with a 500 grain bullet in the .454 than you can with a 360 from a penetration standpoint. We're not talking 1.8-inch .460 cases here, TV clearly stated that he was running 500s in .454 cases.
    Oh, donít know about penetration between the two, never tried but I can push it harder even in that 454 case because I can set the COL longer in my X-frame. Will it penetrate better or worse than a faster 360g? I donít know but it will go way on in there. Then with a 460 case I can set longer yet, get a good solid crimp on it, speeds of 1100fps+ with recoil I can handle . . . there are advantages to that ďbulkyĒ X-frame.

    This ď460/500 is a waste because a whatever we had would kill anythingĒ argument reminds me of the ole timers when I was a kid saying 300WM was a huge waste because 30-06 will kill anything 300WM will. Itís the same thing, and that is true but itís also true that there are valuable advantages to a 300WM over a 30-06 . . . same is true with the X-frame rounds and the big gun it takes to hold them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    I have shot the 360 gain WLFN 454 bullet completely through Bison. through and through penetration, so what would be gain by a heavier bullet? A marginally stable bullet will fly threw the air reasonable well , but tumble and not penetrate so well through animal tissue
    I wouldnít call them marginally stable, at least from a 460 case, I get nice round holes out at 300 yards still. But even if they were they are very likely to fully penetrate a bison even tumbeling so you have lost nothing and gained a bigger more jagged wound channel gushing more blood.

    Same point I was trying to make about 300g XTPmags, if I can push a 300g expanding apatite to azz through a moose why do I want a heaver solid and give up that diameter AND give up the flatter trajectory. I can go heavy-n-slow like I did for years but now I can also get enough speed from a 300g expanding to make the terminal ballistics of my handgun work more like a rifle and not need to worry so much if Iím getting into the vitals because I know I am.
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    Bullets that tumble do not penetrate well and often don't go in a straight line and tumbling is definitely not a desirable trait.

    You are making an assumption based on what? Revolver do not have the required twist rate for such long bullets. Twist rate definitely will affect penetration.

    Have you ever tested those bullets in any media?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    Bullets that tumble do not penetrate well and often don't go in a straight line and tumbling is definitely not a desirable trait.

    You are making an assumption based on what? Revolver do not have the required twist rate for such long bullets. Twist rate definitely will affect penetration.

    Have you ever tested those bullets in any media?
    I doubt they would tumble but even tumbling a 500g going over 1100fps is not gonna stop very easy. The gain twist final rate is faster than the 1-16ish of a SRH and I can bush it at least 300fps faster than can be done from a SRH so it is stabilizing fairly well. Now though I have played with the 500 and 600 I donít use ether for anything, not that they donít have a use just I donít have a use. In cast I use 405 (swaged down 45/70 lead) and 395s because they offer the best performance balance in a 460, and I plink with 300s because they are cheap and fun. But saying 500s are useless because 360s do fine is like 308 nuts saying 220g is useless because they canít shoot them. 220s work great in a 30-06 though, just the smaller 308 canĎt push them hard enough to make them useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyd View Post
    Actually I've got these to stabilize in my 4" Redhawk with a 1:16 twist. The Puma is 1:20 I think, I've also read 1:30 so I'm not quite sure.
    RCBS .458 sized to .454 or .452 (have to look at my notes) Barely fits in the cylinder but it does. But, thy jump crimp after 4 rounds. 425 to 435gr depending on the alloy.



    25yds



    50yds




    47 yds off rest. I pack this for my berry patch gun or fishing on the creek with the wife. the puma holds 10 in the tube. Not usable in the redhawk though cuz of crimp jump but I've got another style boolit to try that has better crimpt groove. my first test it move .010 after 9 rounds. did not jamb cylinder.



    Ross Seyfried tried the 400 grainers years ago and found that on game they didn't penetrate well because they are marginally stable in air.

    Whitworth tested the 405 grain bullet in the 44 mag a while back and found it to not penetrate with a 240 grain Keith. Michial458 on AR has found the same thing in riles. That is marginally stable bullet in air doesn't penetrate well in any soft solid media ( such as muscle tissue, test media etc)

    A bullet can be marginally stable in air and leave round holes in a paper target yet tumble and or go off line in animal tissue and test media

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    I doubt they would tumble but even tumbling a 500g going over 1100fps is not gonna stop very easy. The gain twist final rate is faster than the 1-16ish of a SRH and I can bush it at least 300fps faster than can be done from a SRH so it is stabilizing fairly well. Now though I have played with the 500 and 600 I donít use ether for anything, not that they donít have a use just I donít have a use. In cast I use 405 (swaged down 45/70 lead) and 395s because they offer the best performance balance in a 460, and I plink with 300s because they are cheap and fun. But saying 500s are useless because 360s do fine is like 308 nuts saying 220g is useless because they canít shoot them. 220s work great in a 30-06 though, just the smaller 308 canĎt push them hard enough to make them useful.


    You are dead wrong when a bullet tumbles penetration suffers greatly. I have experienced this first hand a few years back on Bison

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    You are dead wrong when a bullet tumbles penetration suffers greatly. I have experienced this first hand a few years back on Bison
    Sure penetration suffers but when I can shoot through two 18Ē frozen Birch trees and never find the bullet just how much penetration do I need anyway. Slow the thing down to 454 speeds and it does about 9Ē so I understand what you are saying . . . put another 3-400fps on it and you will know what Iím saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Sure penetration suffers but when I can shoot through two 18Ē frozen Birch trees and never find the bullet just how much penetration do I need anyway. Slow the thing down to 454 speeds and it does about 9Ē so I understand what you are saying . . . put another 3-400fps on it and you will know what Iím saying.


    First a bullet can not tumble in wood. Wood and an animal have absolutely nothing in common. I have wood, test media and animals. The fact is that a bullet in media has something in cammon with shooting an animal, but shooting wood does not and is absolutely worthless in comparison

    If you are talking about shooting wood and wood only then the marginal stabilization of the over size bullet is a moot point

    My post are always in relationship to shooting game and I could care less about penetration in wood in these discussions

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