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Thread: 10mm vs. 44M and up...

  1. #1

    Default 10mm vs. 44M and up...

    Alright, spent a while doing some testing for my own benefit. I was attempting to answer 3 questions, but the results could actually help answer several others.

    1) How much of a penalty would a person pay, performance wise, running a reduced load in a .44 Mag, i.e., can a lower velocity load still perform like a higher velocity load with a high SD bullet?

    2) How much performance can be had from a more packable gun, like a 10mm, in comparison to a .44 Mag?

    3) How much difference is there between standard FMJ and hotter loads in the 10mm?

    To answer this I shot spruce, otherwise known as AK ballistic gellatin...


    Here is the general gist.

    .44Mag w/ 300g WFNHCGC @ 1340 penetrated about 13" of spruce.

    .44Mag w/ 300g WFNHCGC @ 1010 penetrated about 6 1/2" of spruce.

    10mm w/ 200g HCSWC @ 1000 penetrated about 6 1/2" of spruce.

    10mm w 180g FMJ @ 1000 penetrated 4 1/2" of spruce.

    There were several different rounds, but it ended up being 4 180s, 4 200s, and 4 300s (2 each of 2 speeds), so chrono speeds aren't great averages, just ballpark.

    ***My thoughts*** IMO, this shows that if you aren't carrying full tilt+ 44 loads with heavy hardcast, you aren't accomplishing anything particularly special with it. If you choose to download the round for followup shots, it may be acceptable to carry another platform without any major performance penalty. I am not particularly concerned with frontal area of the bullet on a brown bear, because a killing shot isn't going to be one that makes it bleed out, so the .029 larger hole shouldn't be particularly significant.

    The 200g load has a smaller meplat, which could make some difference in penetration. It was the only one I had, and I figure it makes a best case scenario as long as it doesn't tumble, which it didn't. That being said, I'm not expecting a huge drop in penetration with a slightly larger meplat.

    With the significant difference between the 1000 and 1340 FPS penetration on the .44, it makes me think that the Buffalo Bore 220g 10mm, which clocks over 1100 FPS, could easily show penetration 75-80% of the hot loaded .44. Also note, I believe that the 1340 .44 load is over book max, so is there for comparison more so than to show what a .44 is capable of. That being the case, the gap between the hottest Buffalo Bore 10mm and .44 in penetration may not be that large.

    So what are your thoughts on the info as presented?
    Last edited by kingfisherktn; 12-06-2011 at 07:26. Reason: edited at request of OP

  2. #2
    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBM View Post
    With the significant difference between the 1000 and 1340 FPS penetration on the .44, it makes me think that the Buffalo Bore 220g 10mm, which clocks over 1100 FPS, could easily show penetration 75-80% of the hot loaded .44. Also note, I believe that the 1340 .44 load is over book max, so is there for comparison more so than to show what a .44 is capable of. That being the case, the gap between the hottest Buffalo Bore 10mm and .44 in penetration may not be that large.

    So what are your thoughts on the info as presented?
    Well my testing is that Double Tap 230gr WFNGC Hardcast goes 1140fps average out of my 6"KKM. Best and heaviest 10mm round I have found. Plus also tested on two bears. First was 19 1/16 black bear that was shy of 7' unfleshed with only a single round that was a complete pass thru at a compound angle at 12yards. The second was a follow up shot on a smaller blackie, square to the top of skull as it was laying down on it side. It went thru skull, down spine and found past the shoulder under the hide. Next test will be a brown bear. Dispatched a moose too, but never touched it after it was dead, was left for the alaska moose federation to deal with, was okayed to shoot by troopers who were on the phone with the people that hit it.

  3. #3

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    I'm interested in the 230g stuff, but I've seen it clock 890 or so on YouTube, and then you show it as 1140. It seems like more difference than I would expect from 1.3" of bbl length. If it shot at the higher velocity, it would be great, but not so much so if it hit less than 900 for me.

    Edit- roustabout, it was your posts that helped get me excited about the 10mm. And that dog of yours sounds like a winner too!

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    You need to tell me where these murderous spruce are so I can avoid them.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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  5. #5

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    You gots to be careful, it seem like they are everywhere... I know that you can put them down in the best of conditions with a 10mm, but you never know, when everything is moving around, or if you are cold and tired, there might be a need for a bigger caliber...

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    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBM View Post
    I'm interested in the 230g stuff, but I've seen it clock 890 or so on YouTube, and then you show it as 1140. It seems like more difference than I would expect from 1.3" of bbl length. If it shot at the higher velocity, it would be great, but not so much so if it hit less than 900 for me.

    Edit- roustabout, it was your posts that helped get me excited about the 10mm. And that dog of yours sounds like a winner too!
    I personally chronoed the two hardcast rounds. I will do it again, I don't own a chrono. It was on a cold day 2 years ago in late october or early nov. Yes that dog of mine is winner! Trooper too! She was out for hours sat with us bunny hunting in feet of powder, she still managed to kick up bunnies and go after once one ran! Snow was twice her height. She is such a winner, she has her own black bear dog bed coming!

  7. #7

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    Sorry, need to edit my post slightly, but don't see how to. The rounds that penetrated 5 1/2" actually penetrated right around 6 1/2". I was just looking back over everything and realized my slip.

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    Are there any handloaded 10mm 230 gr speeds recorded and with how much of what powder? 230 gr @ 900 FPS seems to be a pretty stout load and should penetrate about like a 300 gr 45 LC round at 850 which was reported to penetrate better than at 1200fps.

  9. #9

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    I've seen 220g handloads that seem to get 890ish, a little over 900 out of a 6" bbl. I think the commercially loaded stuff has the potential to run a bit hotter due to using non canister grade powders. The Buffalo Bore 220g hardcast clocks a touch over 1100 out of a Glock 20. I think you need to hit over 1000fps to keep heavier bullets stable enough to penetrate well, maybe even faster than that.

    If it was a hardcast bullet, it shouldn't have penetrated better at 850 than 1200 fps. Usually the stuff that moves that slow doesn't hardly penetrate at all.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBM View Post
    I've seen 220g handloads that seem to get 890ish, a little over 900 out of a 6" bbl. I think the commercially loaded stuff has the potential to run a bit hotter due to using non canister grade powders. The Buffalo Bore 220g hardcast clocks a touch over 1100 out of a Glock 20. I think you need to hit over 1000fps to keep heavier bullets stable enough to penetrate well, maybe even faster than that.

    If it was a hardcast bullet, it shouldn't have penetrated better at 850 than 1200 fps. Usually the stuff that moves that slow doesn't hardly penetrate at all.
    FWIW, a guy over on the GlockTalk forum chronoed 52 different factory loads out of his factory G20 (he posted videos on Facebook, which I didn't watch) and here are some results (5-rd strings, execpt where indicated):

    Bullet: Velocity (Extreme Spread)

    BB 180gr JHP: 1,328 fps (39 fps)

    BB 220gr HC: 1,109 fps (15 fps)

    BB 200gr FN FMJ: 1,132 fps (58 fps, 10-rds)

    DT 200gr HC: 1,116 fps (60 fps)

    DT 180gr Controlled Exp.: 1,169 fps (18 fps)

    Winchester 175gr ST: 1,163 fps (38 fps, 10-rds)

    CorBon 200gr RNPN: 1,075 fps (24 fps)

    DT 230gr HC: 999.4 fps (27 fps)

    Those are most of the ones from more-mainstream manufacturers that have the larger/more-solid bullets. I included the BB 180gr JHP because it is wicked, as confirmed here: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

    Based on the above, the BB 220gr HC looks about as good as anything from the factory for big things. I haven't chronoed it yet, but my guess is that it probably would be going about 1,175 fps or so out of a 6" barrel.

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    Moderator kingfisherktn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HBM View Post
    Sorry, need to edit my post slightly, but don't see how to. The rounds that penetrated 5 1/2" actually penetrated right around 6 1/2". I was just looking back over everything and realized my slip.

    Edited as per your request.

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    Good info Marine!

    Are there any handloads that will do 1100+ with the 220 gr HC? If so, what powder and how much?

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    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    I don't think spruce is the best medium. As you hit the grain in different directions you are going to get different results based on the strength of the wood. Even with a finish nailer in the wood-shop here you can't always predict where the nail is going to go.

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  14. #14

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    Thanks MarineHawk for that info. Nice find!


    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    I don't think spruce is the best medium. As you hit the grain in different directions you are going to get different results based on the strength of the wood. Even with a finish nailer in the wood-shop here you can't always predict where the nail is going to go.
    I don't know that it is the best medium, but it does seem to be relatively consistent for this. In this bit, for example, the 4 shots that clocked within 30fps were all sitting about the same depth. All bets would be off if you hit a knot though.

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    Some people use wet phone books. Can you get them anymore? Wet newspaper too.

    So let me ask you this: Slight difference in penetration, but which round transfered the most energy to the target? A 17 grain steel BB traveling at 36,000 fps has the about the same energy as a 180 grain 30/06 at 2,700 fps. Which one do you want to use for bears? We are back to which came first the chicken or the egg argument.

    Fun to experment though....... If I remember there is a researcher for Magnus Broadheads out there that uses actual moose and caribou parts for testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    Some people use wet phone books. Can you get them anymore? Wet newspaper too.

    So let me ask you this: Slight difference in penetration, but which round transfered the most energy to the target? A 17 grain steel BB traveling at 36,000 fps has the about the same energy as a 180 grain 30/06 at 2,700 fps. Which one do you want to use for bears? We are back to which came first the chicken or the egg argument.

    Fun to experment though....... If I remember there is a researcher for Magnus Broadheads out there that uses actual moose and caribou parts for testing.



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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    So let me ask you this: Slight difference in penetration, but which round transfered the most energy to the target?
    I am not trying to be a jerk when I say this, but I don't think it matters, in the case of the two rounds mentioned. Here is why...

    I am checking this in relation to what performance on a brown bear may be, nothing else. I realize that they are considerably different, but it is all I have at the moment. In any case, there are going to be two things that will make a brownie slow down, 1) a CNS hit, or 2) breaking down its ability to move efficiently. I am thinking that the CNS hit is going to be mechanical, i.e., a bullet penetrating the bears brain or spinal cord. Breaking down its ability to move would be mechanical, by breaking a vital portion of its shoulder. I doubt either of these is going to be much different with the addition of a couple hundred ft/lbs of energy.

    I would guess that some wounds may slow down a brown bear, but would expect them to be dependent on other circumstances more than the gun or round used.

    I think you would need something like 2000fps or better before you would see any real additional damage from a WFN bullet. How many hunters talk about having good meat right up to the hole with straightwall rifle rounds? Even at that, I'm not sure that the shoulder of a brown bear is going to give like the ribs and lungs of a deer or caribou will, so the extra energy may well be a moot point.

    These are all just my thoughts, I'm happy to hear what anyone has to say, one way or the other. I like batting the stuff around as much as anyone else...

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    I think it depends upon what you need to stop. For me it is most likely a 2 legged critter first, then maybe a 800 lb cow moose with a calf, then maybe a mountain cat, then a black bear, then the least likely is a inland griz. A CNS hit in all cases would be the best result but probably won't happen or at least the odds are against that with a charging animal.

    I'm willing to stake my life on a hard cast 200 gr (or bigger) SWC, delivered by a 10mm Glock, 40 S&W, 44 mag, or a 45 Long Colt or something else that will get the bullet way inside or thru the animal in question. The chances of me getting multiple hits on the animal inside 25 yrds is much better with the 40 S&W than with the other rounds due to recoil and recover time. So, are 6 or 8 rounds of 40 short and weak from a Glock better than 3 rounds of 44 mag from a SBH? Guess it depends upon the animal and situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Good info Marine!

    Are there any handloads that will do 1100+ with the 220 gr HC? If so, what powder and how much?
    Not sure about handloads, but DT 230gr 10mm is avg 1140 out of my glock 20 with kkm 6"bbl. They are gas checked. Not sure if some of the slower velocities are from stock glock bbls, maybe getting some blow by with the polygonal rifleing?

  20. #20

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    Great thread. I have to agree with the difficulty of using a spruce log for consistent testing. I have been wanting to some similar testing but was going to try using this method http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm as a start. Definitely repeatable and comparable between differient folks. Supplies are standard items easily available. I am not necessarily worried about the fabric testing but more so a simple penetration test into the water bags.

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