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Thread: Record books and hunting

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    Default Record books and hunting

    Here is an example of the lengths some people will go to to kill a "record book" animal, and some people will go to for money. This is the dark underbelly of the trophy hunting industry.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...262295384.html

    Maybe when they turn Alaska into a giant game farm there will be smuggling here too.
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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    The only mention of "record book" in the article is the comment by Boone and Crockett that they don't allow scores from deer bred this way into their book.

    I think it's disgusting that people want to engineer deer for hanging on the wall. On the flip side, I think that B&C, P&Y and SCI's clubs serve a good purpose in the world of hunting.

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    The main problem I have with SCI though is they do allow these type of animals in their own record book, which imo has done a great disservice to hunting and promoted evermore canned "hunts."

    In fact, many of the ranchers with high-fence operations use SCI's approval of those kind of "hunts" as a way of justifying what they do. Even when offering all guaranteed "hunts." It isn't hunting. Should not be called hunting. SCI should not allow those animals in any "hunting" record book.

    Anyway, interesting story there twodux, lots going on we don't know about with high-fence "hunting" operations across the country.

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    I see hunts for whitetail going for higher than $20,000 or P.O.R. on certain websites. I hunt whitetail for $27 that Texans pay $10,000 for. Can't wait to see what they will do with a moose.

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    Get rid off these "high fenced ranches" and "geneticaly advanced" deer and say goodbye to your hunting shows. I once went to a seminar by Roger Raglin and was invited to a after show meeting. He was trying to sell Amway and stated "that if you want to shoot big deer you need money". I'm not a Roger fan anymore; nor Amway or farm raised deer. This method of "hunting" is NOT HUNTING!! Sorry folks you can't go out on a real hunt and sit in a box blind (heated and air conditioned) that sticks out (edited) and shoot B&C class deer. There domestic animals; go down to the local farmer and ask him if you could shoot one of his long horn steer's and you will pay him $10,000.00 and all you want is the horns and the "thrill" of the kill. I'll bet he will hook you up with a box blind or better yet, shoot right from the barn you wouldn't have to take the risk of climbing the ladder into the stand.
    Last edited by Michael Strahan; 11-29-2011 at 15:12. Reason: language

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    Here is an example of the lengths some people will go to to kill a "record book" animal, and some people will go to for money. This is the dark underbelly of the trophy hunting industry.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...262295384.html

    Maybe when they turn Alaska into a giant game farm there will be smuggling here too.
    For Alaska, I'm more concerned about people contributing to nuisance bears or assisting pike to different water systems rather exotic pets that are raised and later slaughtered.

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    I did a hunt last March on a 1,000 acre fenced in ranch for pigs and Russian boars. When we started the owner told us how many different species of animals that were on the ranch. And, that if we saw, such and such, to let him know. Hummm...... only a 1,000 acres right. Between four or us we never did see some of the animals mentioned. And the pigs, are not as dumb as they look either. Fenced in or not, my view point changed quite a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daveinthebush View Post
    I did a hunt last March on a 1,000 acre fenced in ranch for pigs and Russian boars. When we started the owner told us how many different species of animals that were on the ranch. And, that if we saw, such and such, to let him know. Hummm...... only a 1,000 acres right. Between four or us we never did see some of the animals mentioned. And the pigs, are not as dumb as they look either. Fenced in or not, my view point changed quite a bit.
    Kinda off topic, but Mr Dave were you hunting pigs during daylight??? I ask because they are very nocturnal, many ranches in TX hunt them on full moon nights and with night vision or spot lights. I spent a few years in TX myself and used to help with crop protection for a few farmers.

    As long as people are willing to pay for Trophies, drugs, you name it, there will be those willing to go to any length to supply the demand.

    It has been said that money is the root of all evil.

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    Undoubtedly money - big money - creates an environment rich for greed and deceit. However, I have to wonder if it were not for the shows and promotions across the country bringing more hunters into the sport where would we be today with all the anti hunters we must combat? I think there are many lands that today are open for hunting - many for a fee - yes, but still open for hunters that probably would not be if it were like it was a couple decades ago. Too many landowners and managers got fed up with inconsiderate hunters and often non hunters that they closed their properties off. Today, money and promotions has re-opened a lot of that.
    So, while there is a lot of bad to shake a finger at there is likely a lot of good that needs to be cheered. Unfortunately we seem to be moving at a rapid pace where only the wealthy will be able to afford to hunt I am afraid....
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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    Quote Originally Posted by stid2677 View Post
    Kinda off topic, but Mr Dave were you hunting pigs during daylight??? I ask because they are very nocturnal, many ranches in TX hunt them on full moon nights and with night vision or spot lights. I spent a few years in TX myself and used to help with crop protection for a few farmers.


    Steve
    We tried to about midnight or 1 am one night with headlamps and a full moon. I actually saw the most after 6 pm untill about a hour before dark.

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    If those are hunts, Then I shot this massive "bull" off my "food plot" and I called it in to 3 feet when it was eating some corn I put on the ground, it had 6 inch bases and was 30 inches wide...... It was a "perfect shot" right though its head, and my premium winchester power points expanded beautifully, passing all the way though. It was a fun hunt, got it done the first morning, the only part was the "guide" made me help skin gut hang and cut up the meat. our other computer crashed so I don't have a picture of that 1200 LB steer....sure is a tasty one though. from ring raised on our "special blend of grasses" And then there was that bird hunt, I couldn't even use a gun cause I had to tight of a choke, I had to use an axe on them. again my guide made me gut and pluck the animals. I was geese hunting on the same farm, My Mossberg 9200 "duck gun did beautifully on it, as did our premium lead federal 7 1/2 shot, made perfect head shots too. all under 5 yards. lol. we had to "tag" a few management bulls last winter, cause there just wasn't enough feed and one of them got stuck in one our "low fences" and darned near froze to death. its antlers weren't worthy of hanging on the wall, but the big bull I shot this fall was, a 2 1/2 year old. essentially thats the story of the butchering I've done this fall with our steers and chickens and geese.
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    People kill animals for all kinds of reasons. I've a hard time condemning one type over another so long as the methods are not inhumane--and my definition of humane is not likely to be considered PETA friendly. I prefer the experience of the hunt to the kill (but make no mistake the kill is an indispensable component of the hunt) others prefer the kill. Ultimately it's a personal decision that cannot be easily expressed in words. Competition drives us; some compete against nature, some against each other, others against themselves. I can't see much moral high ground in the quest though I still have my preference. I will say that if we divide hunters against each other and degrade legal hunting practices whatever the reason or type then all hunting will struggle for legal status in the good ole USA.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    The main problem I have with SCI though is they do allow these type of animals in their own record book, which imo has done a great disservice to hunting and promoted evermore canned "hunts."

    In fact, many of the ranchers with high-fence operations use SCI's approval of those kind of "hunts" as a way of justifying what they do. Even when offering all guaranteed "hunts." It isn't hunting. Should not be called hunting. SCI should not allow those animals in any "hunting" record book.

    Anyway, interesting story there twodux, lots going on we don't know about with high-fence "hunting" operations across the country.
    SCI's record book is about fundraising and education..............and fundraising. People pay to have their animals listed. I would imagine that's why they are so inclusive. Oh did I mention fundraising? As far as record books go I look at them as a tribute to the animal. I have yet to enter an animal. That said if I ever shoot an exceptional animal I'll list it for the animal. I recently talked a friend into listing his grizzly on the same principle. The bear deserves it.

    Brett

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I will say that if we divide hunters against each other and degrade legal hunting practices whatever the reason or type then all hunting will struggle for legal status in the good ole USA.
    What he said!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    People kill animals for all kinds of reasons. I've a hard time condemning one type over another so long as the methods are not inhumane--and my definition of humane is not likely to be considered PETA friendly. I prefer the experience of the hunt to the kill (but make no mistake the kill is an indispensable component of the hunt) others prefer the kill. Ultimately it's a personal decision that cannot be easily expressed in words. Competition drives us; some compete against nature, some against each other, others against themselves. I can't see much moral high ground in the quest though I still have my preference. I will say that if we divide hunters against each other and degrade legal hunting practices whatever the reason or type then all hunting will struggle for legal status in the good ole USA.
    What he said X's 2. Nicely said sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    I will say that if we divide hunters against each other and degrade legal hunting practices whatever the reason or type then all hunting will struggle for legal status in the good ole USA.
    That's a lazy argument.

    As hunters, we are all judged by the actions of other so called hunters. If someone wants to pay to sit in a pen and shoot an artificially grown animal that can't get away, I agree, that's their business even tho I have no desire to do the same thing. But it's no different than shooting a cow grown under the same circumstances.

    But if that person wants to call it hunting, I have a big problem with that because as a hunter I have enough image problems already that affect my ability to legally hunt. I have seen hunting "rights" voted away. And every repugnant act that is committed in the name of hunting reflects on me and every other hunter. So my opinion is, we as hunters have to be very careful of what we are willing to pass off as "HUNTING". Most of us get pissed when we see an article about a poacher and the article calls him a hunter. I see comments all the time on hunting boards, "He's a criminal, not a hunter", or "He's a poacher, not a hunter." There is nothing wrong with calling out BS! when someone commits an act that will reflect on you.

    If I stick up for that guy, just because he calls himself a hunter, I am equally guilty of his act in the eyes of those who have some control over my activity, because I am condoning it.
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    There is a huge difference between hunting and shooting. Tramping through miles of muddy fields, thorn bushes and honeysuckle after quail, to me at least, is hunting. Standing or sitting on the edge of a field waiting for doves to fly through is just shooting. Both are fun, but to me the HUNTING is much more satisfying.

    Pitting your wits and skills against the insticts and experience of a mature game animal is the pinnacle of hunting. A big, gnarly old head on the wall says something about your prowess and determination, but only if it was fair-chase killed.

    "Look at my $20,000, 200" deer I just shot!" says what it says. It's about the cost in dollars, not the cost in effort. It's not for me, at all, but to each his/her own. I know what is the most satisfying for me.

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    I think we all will agree that we have to defend our rights as hunters together; wether we hunt pen raised or wild animals. But we as hunters will always differ on weather pen raised animals should be aloud into record books. I may be a hipocrit, in an earlier post I commented that shooting pen raised animals was not hunting. I have shot pen raised pheasants; and paid to do it (only once). Yes, it was fun and I enjoyed it. I do not personaly consider it real hunting.....not sure what to call it. Yes its hunting but not the way I was raised into hunting. I love everything about hunting the wait, the chase, the misses, and the kills they all add to the extreem excitment we get as hunters. I just don't believe "pen raised" or "geneticly enhanced" trophies sould be reconized in the books. Thats your personal trophey....and thats great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodux View Post
    That's a lazy argument.

    As hunters, we are all judged by the actions of other so called hunters. If someone wants to pay to sit in a pen and shoot an artificially grown animal that can't get away, I agree, that's their business even tho I have no desire to do the same thing. But it's no different than shooting a cow grown under the same circumstances.

    But if that person wants to call it hunting, I have a big problem with that because as a hunter I have enough image problems already that affect my ability to legally hunt. I have seen hunting "rights" voted away. And every repugnant act that is committed in the name of hunting reflects on me and every other hunter. So my opinion is, we as hunters have to be very careful of what we are willing to pass off as "HUNTING". Most of us get pissed when we see an article about a poacher and the article calls him a hunter. I see comments all the time on hunting boards, "He's a criminal, not a hunter", or "He's a poacher, not a hunter." There is nothing wrong with calling out BS! when someone commits an act that will reflect on you.

    If I stick up for that guy, just because he calls himself a hunter, I am equally guilty of his act in the eyes of those who have some control over my activity, because I am condoning it.
    I don't have a problem with someone who shoots a critter inside a 10,000 acre high fenced ranch calling himself a hunter. I've never done it, but only because I've never had the opportunity. I don't hunt any certain way or any certain place just so someone else (that I don't even know) can say my actions reflect well on them. Screw them! This is still the USA, and as a citizen of the greatest country in the world, as long as what I'm doing is legal (shooting animals inside high fences is legal), I will continue to do so...and I will continue to call myself a hunter regardless of what the anti's or anyone else wants to label me.

    It's called freedom!

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    The "united we stand, divided we fall" argument has never really added up to me. In fact I look at it the opposite way, I believe if hunters don't criticize some of what is going on with "hunting" these days we are worse off down the line.

    Neither have I ever bought into the "if it's legal it's thus okay" argument.

    As far as SCI, a week or so ago a friend emailed me a link to a story with the title, "Canned Hunt Ranch Owner Defends His Industry." I went and checked out the guy's website, here is a few quotes from the homepage:
    Okay, so you do not think that hunting elk that reside with in a bordered piece of property is hunting. Guess that depends what hunting means to you. If it was not hunting then SCI ( Safari Club International) would not recognize and have a scoring system for these types of hunts.
    Safari Club International rates an estate hunt as fair chase if there is sufficient cover for the game to escape into when pursued--there is sufficient cover at [name deleted] with all the oak and service berry brush on the property.

    So...okay, SCI says, according to this guy, that this is a fair chase "hunt." But then there is this:
    When you hunt elk with [name deleted] you will see the elk that you are there to harvest, be provided with that shot opportunity and be guarenteed [sic] the shot or your deposit is all you pay for your hunt.

    This is where I get ticked off, and why it's not "hunting" and should not ever be labeled as such. The kicker in all this is it is the Humane Society trying to shut down these type of operations, and of course they too will associate this with all hunting, instead of the hunting community itself standing up and saying loud and clear, This is not hunting, this is not who we are or what we stand for, we don't support or condone this, don't associate this with hunting and hunters.

    But, because SCI allows for this type of thing and promotes it as well, it is associated with hunting and hunters and in the end I honestly think that hurts us rather than helps. HSUS and others will just use these things against us to paint us all with the same broad brush if enough of us don't publicly stand up and oppose these type of operations.

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