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Thread: What training is required

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    Default What training is required

    This recent lengthy and interesting thread about the national Reciprocity law in Congress has brought to mind this question.

    What training is required or what proficiency is needed for a person to carry a concealed handgun with the intent and purpose of defending ones life or the life of another with the use of deadly force?

    Are the marksmanship standards high enough?

    Do CCW classes teach an individual to shoot with a high degree of proficiency, or test the proficiency level to such a standard to enable an individual to defend ones own life with the use of deadly force, handgun?

    What would be a better test?
    What criteria should be used to determine proficiency?
    Mike
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    When we started in Alaska most used the pre-approved NRA basic handgun course and a few legal questions answered by a LEO.You then qualified with the type/caliber weapon you wanted to carry. Most used a 45acp for auto and 44mag for revolver.You could not carry a caliber bigger than what you qualified with and no rimfire. Now in Texas you could qualify with a 380acp and carry anything
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    I agree with AW, i will also add that most states will follow the NRA guide line for instruction. However not all states have a qualification test that must be passed in order to carry a CCW.
    There are some very fine lines of opinions on why "one should have to take a test if this is my right" or I was in the Military I am qualified I should not have to shoot the test , and many more.


    IMO as an instructor for the NRA, DoS and formerly UT there is a real need to set up a uniform standard across the board training mandate for CCW permits.
    I am not interested in arguing the point of '' It's my right to carry'' I already agree.

    There are states out there that only require you to sit in the classroom for 8hr or less and take an open booklet test and you are good to go. There are a lot of folks out there that have never had a gun in their hand. “They want to learn how to shoot to defend’’. They do not know what type of gun they need that will fit their body makes up. There is a growing movement of folk that have decided that they do not want to be a victim and want to carry but don’t know where to start.

    If there is going to be a CCW course mandate then make it the same across the board. If a particular state has additional standards then they can add too.
    The question of what would be the standard on the shoot qualification. Well the NRA does have a good basic shoot qualification for the average too below average person on the range. We must remind ourselves that there really is no need to be able to hit a pie plate at 25yd in protecting yourself. The threat will be at 3’ to 10’ for the most part any farther than that will be harder to justify in a court of law. ‘I am not a lawyer’ but that make since to me.

    Just some thoughts on my end
    Last edited by sweepint; 11-19-2011 at 16:22. Reason: spelling

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    The best training is to sit and ponder whether or not you are capable of pulling the trigger. I firmly believe 98% on this board are not capable of doing that, oh they may say they are ready, but don't believe it.

    No-one should have to have "training" by sitting in a class. If you aren't mentally prepared (read above), then you aren't going to get it by someone talking to you.

    Anyone can and should seek out training classes on a voluntary basis to learn what they need to.

    Anyone who thinks an LEO is somehow an "expert" on firearms or with firearms is...severely not thinking linearly. They'll qualify on their sidearms and that will be pretty much it. A uniform doesn't confer wisdom or knowledge. Many on here are far, far more knowledgeable about firearms and any 10 leo's. But this is the sort of brainwashing the major media continually reinforce. Has anyone noticed when a meth lab is found, you'll never hear the talking heads interview a chemist. At least I have never seen this done. What will happen is some guy in uniform will regurgitate his 8 hour haz-mat class and yet, people will believe what they hear as gospel.

    You want to know about deadly force? Talk to a lawyer. Always have your lawyer on speed dial as they will be the first one you should call.
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    1- There is nothing you can teach me in an 8hr CCW classs that will give me an edge over the hundreds of hours of real SD and tactical marksmanship classes I've already had. I personally run over 98% combat accuracy on the most stringent LE marksmanship courses. (this isn't to toot my own horn, it's to make a point... read on)

    2- There are countless folks who can be given hundreds of hours of range time, with quality instructors, and still can't reliably pass the most basic LE marksmanship test with a handgun. A minimum standard LE pistol qualification is going to fail about 1/4 of the general public on a cold start (and all SD shootings are "cold", the BG never lets you warm up and practice in advance).

    The reason I point this out (both examples from personal, first hand experience as a firearms instructor) is that you cannot create a "uniform standard" for general public CCW that is going to be the catch all. If you make it stringent enough to test the folks in example #1 above, you're going to fail 3/4 of the people who attempt it. If you make it easy enough that everyone in group #2 can pass it (hence complying with both "shall not be infringed" and "shall issue" laws), then the whole course is pointless. It would literally have to be something like, "You have 5 minutes to draw and shoot 15 rounds at this 4x8 sheet of plywood at 3 yards. If you can hit the board with at least one round, you will be issued a CCW permit".

    Thus, I strongly feel that any kind of a "test" is a very, very bad idea for a CCW Permit. You are far better off going with something along the lines of the current system that has classroom instruction on gun safety and the legal requirements. What I would add to that is a range day that focuses entirely on gun safety and proper gun handling and accurate shooting. But do this without any sort of test. Keep it purely educational, with lots of trigger time, and a curriculum that is loose enough to allow first-time shooters to keep up and fast enough to keep seasoned shooters engaged.

    Finally, it is a fallacy to assume that someone who is/was a cop or in the military knows how to shoot. In fact, these 2 populations really don't sort out very much better than the general shooting public between good and bad shooters.
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    Good points JOAT. I agree with all of them.

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    Ill add, with the training I took which consisted of 4 -10 hr days its not all about pulling the trigger. Knowing how to "run" your gun is just as important to firing it. Clearing jams,magazine changes,presentation, combat turns and the like was awesome to learn thru repetetive dry and live drills. I saw it first hand one day when we were on break and the instructor was testing a fellow who hadnt gone thru the class and was just shooting his rounds on target to qualify. His gun jammed and he didnt know how to clear it. He would have been dead in the real world.

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    I agree with Joat also and others points but I think my point wasn't clear.

    I mean from a personal view. What proficiency level should I attain and maintain before I pack a pistol under my coat. yes I agree it is a fundamental right.....to protect my own life, but can I be effective with a handgun (and not endanger others) without any training/practice/competitive skills? I have met many folks who think they have the right, they took the 8 hour course, so they are going to carry. I do consider those folks a problem in the making.

    How good do I need to be?
    Let's face it that 8 hour course and those 20 shots on the range for someone who isn't proficient already isn't going to accomplish much. I saw a seven year old girl with a nine mm last week end pass the shooting portion of the CCW course. DO you think that is enough?
    Mike
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    Its a big responsibility to carry concealed. Its up to you to practice and practice some more. Like I said anybody can shoot a target, but can you "run" the gun.Practice drawing with the gun unloaded, repeatedly. Go shoot your gun ALOT,get comfortable with the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    ... from a personal view. What proficiency level should I attain and maintain before I pack a pistol under my coat...
    Very good. You're thinking has already put you ahead of 90% of the CCW "packers".

    First, (and dew has already eluded to it) you don't need to go to the range and burn live ammo to do most of the training you need to do. Learn the skill correctly from a knowledgeable instructor. And then, draw and dry fire. Draw and dry fire. Draw and dry fire. It's like working out. Especially in the beginning, make a schedule and practice the draw, point, and trigger pull for a 15-20 minute "workout" daily or every other day. This should be in a clear, quiet location with NO live ammo in the room and a safe backstop. Put an IPSC target up and put all your gear on with an empty gun and I repeat, no live ammo anywhere around. Start by going in super slow motion to get your grip and draw the gun, push the front sight to the target and squeeze the trigger. Most guns can be safety dry fired, but if it makes you feel better, use a snap-cap dummy round. Focus on doing it exactly right, every time. Go as slow as you have to in order to get everything perfect. Very gradually work on speeding things up, but do not lose your form.

    Learn how to clear malfunctions and spend some time working on those skills. Work on reloads as well. Nearly everything can be done at home with no shooting.

    Once you are proficient at getting the gun out and on target within about 2 seconds, you can start heading for the range and work on adding in live fire. Always start and end your range session with slow fire accuracy drills, or what we call "one hole drills". You can do all your range work inside of 10 yards. I recommend starting at about 5 yards. A paper plate centered on the upper chest of an IPSC target is all you really need. Go as slow as you have to to keep all your rounds inside the plate. If you're putting all the rounds in a super tight group, then go faster. Your goal is actually to have a combat group of about 6" diameter. If it's bigger, slow down and work on front sight and trigger squeeze. If it's smaller than that, work on going faster as you're spending too much time aiming and/or squeezing (but usually aiming).

    You really don't need someone else to tell you how proficient you are. If you don't know, then you need more practice. You will know it when you get there.

    Of course then we throw another wrench into the game... movement and shooting from various body positions. So it's really an ongoing process that has no definitive "end point".
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Popping the cap must be automatic and the fact your are about to kill someone already OKed in your brain.One you decide to draw a second latter at most it should be over deed done and gun laying on the ground waiting for LEO.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Another thing to consider that i haven't noticed anyone bring up is firearm selection. It is an imopprtant consideration and not one to be taken lightly. If the need ever arises to act, you want to be sure you are prepaired. One thing i did when i picked my everyday carry weapon was a "blind aim" exercise to make sure the handle angle matched my body. How you do it is, with a EMPTY weapon, pick a spot on a wall, focus on it, then close your eyes, draw, aim, then open your eyes. if the sights are near target, the setup is a good fit for you. it is a good exercise to train you for low light conditions, beacuse you never know where or when the worst may happen. the light may not be optimal and searching for your sights could make the difference in survival. In my oppinion it is important to always carry the same weapon for defence and not switch around alot. there is a big difference between a 1911 and a glock handle angle! i have seen life-long 1911 guys shoot completely over targets when first trying a glock with a fast-fire drill.

    As far as classes go, i am a firm believer in alot of hands on practice (no pun intended). Sitting in a class seems to do very little to help you get ready to carry unless you have zero expirence. most of the tips i have seen here i completely agree with, practice drawing, reholstering, aquiring a target in many different conditions, "dry" clearing your weapon to be ready for misfires, ect. when at the range, i would also suggest doing some shooting from the hip, cause if someone is rushing you, you may not always be able to aim with arms extended.

    One of the best things you can do is to find a mentor and learn all you can, as said earlier, the learning will never end!

    good luck and keep your powder dry

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    To the OP,

    know your defense weapon, shoot it, draw and dry fire, and know the definition of ‘bodily threat or injury’ per your state penal codes. (Verbiage differs per state but it’s all the same)


    Nitro,

    Good points, but, I wouldn’t underestimate the average person to act when it comes to lethal use of force to protect a loved one or their self.
    As far as LEO (as one, and just MHO) we’re faced with a lot more defensive and/or offensive scenarios regarding lethal force then Joe/Jane Public. As far as quals where I come from; live fire-tactical and down range fire with shotgun, rifle and less then lethal systems…….not just the sidearm.
    Most folks just don’t have the opportunity (or desire) for the repetitive training, or deal with the frequency of lethal force encounters for mental preparedness as that of LEO’s, but I don’t think they would hesitate, or lack the salt to ‘pull the trigger’ if it came down to it.
    And lawyers have months and sometimes years to quarterback an incident that might have played out in less than 30 seconds.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Popping the cap must be automatic and the fact your are about to kill someone already OKed in your brain.One you decide to draw a second latter at most it should be over deed done and gun laying on the ground waiting for LEO.
    Two little issues I have with this train of thought...

    First, in a SD situation, you are not about to "kill somebody", you are about to "stop a predatory animal intent on doing you harm". Half the mental battle can be won by putting it into proper terms. Don't think of evil as human.

    Second, don't drop your gun on the ground as soon as it's over. You are defending your life and you better keep that gun in your hand until you are absolutely sure that the fight is over. As LE approaches the location, then you can lay the gun on a countertop, hood of the car or other plainly visible location (off the ground) that is preferably about waste high.
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I look at it as a chance for public service ridding the world of trash and don't worry much about the threat to me thing.Been through alot but thats my life and when the shooting stops its over gun down.Joat you are correct on how most should look at it.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Joat brings up another good point. One of the best aspects of the Redback One class I took was the instruction to assess the situation once the shooting is done. In my previous class twenty years ago we were taught to shoot a double tap. The instruction was poor and we just automatically reholstered. It took me a couple years to realize this was a very bad idea. In the Redback One class you were taught to shoot the assigned amount of rounds, then assess left, right and behind, before reholstering. Stopping your shooting too soon and holstering can get you killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCJonas View Post
    This recent lengthy and interesting thread about the national Reciprocity law in Congress has brought to mind this question.

    What training is required or what proficiency is needed for a person to carry a concealed handgun with the intent and purpose of defending ones life or the life of another with the use of deadly force?

    Are the marksmanship standards high enough?

    Do CCW classes teach an individual to shoot with a high degree of proficiency, or test the proficiency level to such a standard to enable an individual to defend ones own life with the use of deadly force, handgun?

    What would be a better test?
    What criteria should be used to determine proficiency?
    The classroom training I recieved in Minnesota was almost entirely based on the legal issues related to to carrying and or using a firearm in self defense. The instructor really stressed the fact that a carry permit is not a license to go looking for trouble.

    Any training on the actual use and function of a sidearm is the responsibility of the student. Our test for proficency was to shoot 20 rounds or so and hit an 8.5" x 11" target from 7yds.


    I took a renewal class from a different instructor and at least half the people could hardly use or fire their weapons.


    Classes in Minnesota do not teach you how to shoot at all, and they sure don't teach proper handling and tactical use.

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    "What training is required or what proficiency is needed for a person to carry a concealed handgun with the intent and purpose of defending ones life or the life of another with the use of deadly force?"

    As much as I hate to say it, in Georgia all it takes is a clean criminal record and the correct amount of money to pay the licensing fee.
    NRA Life Member since 1974

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    Two separate issues... the state requirement for the permit is one thing, but we're discussing what an individual's chosen proficiency should be when they make that very personal decision to carry CCW.

    It is NOT the state's job nor their place to decide how much training you need to get to that level of proficiency.
    Winter is Coming...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterelk2002 View Post
    Any training on the actual use and function of a sidearm is the responsibility of the student.
    As it should be, the right to defend your life is a “natural right” not an if you can walk and chew gum the government lets you have the privilege to defend your own life. Therefore I feel it’s none of the government’s business what tools you may chose or how qualified you may be to use them if the need arises.

    We are responsible for our choices after the fact though so if you use deadly force you better be able to show in court that your actions and choices were “reasonably responsible.” This is subjective begging questions, what is enough training, what’s too little, maybe you could even have too much making you look like you were spoiling for a fight? I think these are unanswerable questions because the right answer for one case is wrong for another and you can‘t know until it‘s way too late. So to me the right answer is enough proficiency to stay living! Don’t worry much about after the fight until after the fight, job one is to STAY ALIVE so don‘t get yourself killed worrying about the legal issues you may encounter!
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