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Thread: Glock 17 or 34?

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    Member robkroupa's Avatar
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    Default Glock 17 or 34?

    So my my normal daily carry gun was my Glock 19 (note I said was, wife determined that it was now her gun...) so I'm looking at upgrading. I initally thought I would just go to a 17 and be done with it but I carry with a Surefire X300 about 99% of the time and it will extend past the muzzle a little on the 17. So if I'm dealing with that extra length anyway why not go ahead and move up to the 34? The grip is the same length and that is always the part I struggle with the most when it comes to concealed carry and when compared to the 17 with the light on it I'm really only adding a 1/2" or less in overall length. Am I making sense or am I just trying to justify a slightly cooler new toy in the 34 when the 17 would be more practical?

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    If you can CCW the longslide with a rail-light pre-attached, then go for it. Bigger gun is nearly always better.

    I guess the question I'd be asking has to do with sticking to the 9mm if you can carry such a large gun. Why on Earth wouldn't you also switch to a round that will actually do the job when it connects such as the 40S&W or the 45ACP versions?

    If the competition longslide has your fancy, then take a serious look at the Model 35 in 40S&W before sticking with the Nine-Mini-Mini (aka the "380 Long").
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    Member robkroupa's Avatar
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    Until they make a 40 or 45 that gurantees one shot stops I'm going with the one that I can afford to train/practice with more, allows me to make faster follow up shots, and holds more rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Until they make a 40 or 45 that gurantees one shot stops I'm going with the one that I can afford to train/practice with more, allows me to make faster follow up shots, and holds more rounds.
    Why not have both buy the .40 S&W and get the 9MM barrel for $112.00 Practice with one barrel, carry with the other. This is what I do with the Glock 24

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    Member robkroupa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    Why not have both buy the .40 S&W and get the 9MM barrel for $112.00 Practice with one barrel, carry with the other. This is what I do with the Glock 24
    Because then I would have to stock (and reload) another handgun round...

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Because then I would have to stock (and reload) another handgun round...
    OK, I buy 1,000 round bulk cartridges from Wild West Guns, generally 3,K to 4,K at a time.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Because then I would have to stock (and reload) another handgun round...
    And... what's the downside? The one with the most toys (e.g. calibers) wins!
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    Anyone who suggests 9mm is significantly less effective than 40 or 45 needs to reference this thread...

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

    And if you care to dispute it, please let us all know what your credentials/background in terminal ballistics are since Dr. Gary Roberts is a pretty well established authority on the matter.

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post
    Anyone who suggests 9mm is significantly less effective than 40 or 45 needs to reference this thread...

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

    And if you care to dispute it, please let us all know what your credentials/background in terminal ballistics are since Dr. Gary Roberts is a pretty well established authority on the matter.
    My credentials come from my advanced doctorate degree in Common Sense from The University of Logic, Experience, Observation, and Study.

    A 155gr or 165gr .40 caliber bullet moving at almost 1,200 fps (they exist but are not shown on those linked jello shots) MUST be better at penetration and making a bigger hole than a smaller 9mm bullet that also is lighter (124gr) going the same speed. You donít need to be a rocket scientist or even Dr. Roberts to figure that out. So, not surprisingly, I've notice over the years that my hot .40 S&W loads do more violence to things I shoot with them than do the hot 9mm loads Iíve fired.

    Hereís the clincher/tie-breaker (if one was needed) to me: The FBI and the collective State Police in all but two States agree:

    The most popular handgun calibers used by that state police in 49 states are (HI has no state police agency, hence only 49 states) are:

    40 S&W: AL, AK, AZ, CA, CO, CT, IL, IO, KY, LA, MD, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, NE, NV, ND, OH, OR, UT, VT, WA, WI, WY (26)

    .357 Sig: DE, MT, NM, NC, OK, RI, SD, TN, TX, VA (10)

    .45 ACP: AR, ID, KS, ME, NH, WV (6)

    .45 GAP: - FL, GA, NY, PA, SC (5)

    9mm: IN, NJ (2)

    Maybe the NJ and Indiana people are on to something and are smarter than the people in the other 47 states (with State Police), but I doubt it, even if some Dr. Roberts says so.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Just remember that the statistics show only about 15% (percent) of the people who get shot will die. There is almost no such thing as a "one shot stop". There is no such thing as competition bullseye accuracy when shooting people. Hollywood is fake.

    Yes, there are some decent performing 9mm rounds. But 9mm does NOT outperform stuff that starts with a 4. Note the comparitive wound ballistic channels in the following...

    Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

    Historically, the .357 Magnum has been the single most effective anti-human cartridge ever developed for a handgun. This is where the concept for the 357Sig came from, in an attempt to mimic that round out of an auto. When it comes to Glocks, if you have a 40S&W caliber, you also have a 357 Sig if you want it. Simple 5-second barrel swap changes between the two and they use the exact same magazines.
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    Listing what agencies use what means very little. I could point out that the largest department in the country, and one of the largest in the world (NYPD) issues 9mm, as do several SOF units (Army SF, SEALs, etc.), however they all have their own priorities when choosing duty ammo, so I don't think it's very applicable to this conversation.

    The fact of the matter is that the United States is the only country in the world where people seem to believe that a few extra hundredths of an inch in bullet diameter is a significant factor in making bad people stop doing bad things in a hurry. Larger calibers do have some advantages (IE: better barrier penetration), but those advantages are often not terribly applicable to the situations the average person is likely to face with a handgun.

    The advances in propellant and bullet design in just the last 10-15 years have been pretty dramatic. 9mm is much easier to shoot quickly and accurately. More importantly, it's cheaper, and therefore one can afford to train more frequently. When you look at using a handgun for stopping bad people from doing bad things, training has the biggest impact on one's ability to bring the confrontation to a happy conclusion. It is many orders of magnitude more important than practically anything else...including caliber selection.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    When going from 9mm to .45ACP you have an increase in diameter of over 18%, but you have an increase in mass of over 85%. It's the mass, not the diameter that does the dirty work.

    NYC uses 9mm because it is a "less deadly" round and they are hog-tied by the city lawyers to use less lethal junk.

    Military uses 9mm because of political lobbying that resulted in contractual agreements between US and NATO. Had nothing to do with how well the 9mm works (or doesn't).

    Head down to the big-box gun shop. There's no notable price difference between 9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP.

    Further, the smartest gun training you can do requires no ammo whatsoever.
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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    JOAT's right, and when did this become a "which is cheapest" debate? I thought it was which is most effective. So, the military primarily uses the 9mm. They also primarily use the 5.56 in rifles. I guess no one can claim that a 12 gauge is better at close-range defense. A .40 S&W puts out a wider bullet with about 20 percent more cross-sectional surface area and with about 30 percent more mass at the same velocity as a 9mm. Better. Period. Recoil with a .40 S&W is laughable in most .40 guns I own. If none of that matters, why not go down to a .32, which is just a "few hundreds of an inch" narrower than a 9mm? It's cheap and recoils less.

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    Member robkroupa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
    JOAT's right, and when did this become a "which is cheapest" debate?
    Not sure how this whole thing turned into a caliber debate when I was asking about 2 9mm guns...

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Not sure how this whole thing turned into a caliber debate when I was asking about 2 9mm guns...
    It started with post #2. Things do evolve. You're asking about carrying a very large pistol. An obvious question is: Why not then upgrade the caliber to comport with the vast size of the pistol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Not sure how this whole thing turned into a caliber debate when I was asking about 2 9mm guns...
    I think your question was answered in post #2 as well. If you're going to stick to the 9mm and you want a longslide, then buy the model 34. It's a good gun and has a pretty decent rep in the competition bullseye market. I doubt there are very many who CCW that gun due to the longer slide & barrel. The pistol grip is identical to the 17. So if that's what you want, go buy it.

    My follow up question about caliber wasn't really intended to knock the 9mm as much as just get thinking about the larger bore to go with the larger frame. That's all. The 9mm will beat out all the 22, 25, 32 and 380 caliber pocket pistols ever made. And even though the bullet is the same diameter, it's not quite as good as the 357 Mag or Sig loadings. If you have a good stance and hold the gun right, there's no difference in speed of firing multiple shots with any of them. The "follow up shot" argument is bunk with SD. You don't want to put the bullets through the same hole when you're shooting people anyway.
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    Where's that popcorn smiley when ya need it!

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    I think I remember hearing 22 LR kill more folks than any other caliber but that doesn't make them a good personal defense weapon.

    The 9mm may expand but the .45 never shrinks!!

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    Premium Member MarineHawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robkroupa View Post
    Not sure how this whole thing turned into a caliber debate when I was asking about 2 9mm guns...
    Does this ring a bell?:
    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post
    Anyone who suggests 9mm is significantly less effective than 40 or 45 needs to reference this thread...http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887And if you care to dispute it, please let us all know what your credentials/background in terminal ballistics are since Dr. Gary Roberts is a pretty well established authority on the matter.

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    If you want a 9mm and are happy with it then go with it I own Glocks and XD's I trust A glock its a great tool but I love my XDs cant beat either, I just like too many things on the XD to EVER BUY A GLOCK AGAIN. I may be no expert but I have shot somebody with a 9mm and was far from impressed 3 rounds to the chest at 15-25 feet and not the result anybody wound want A burst of 5.56 stopped him. Yes it was 124gr FMJ the best load for a defensve weapon F---no. But when it is my choice to carry it sure isnt a 9mm. My choice nope But you make yours and best of luck with the hunt for a new CCW. No matter what great that you have your wife carrying.

    Check the XDM 9mm 19+1 for you, dont knockem till you try um'
    Oh ya they have a 16+1 40S&W also
    RLTW
    HUNT HARD HUNT SAFE
    WILL

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