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Thread: Bull or cow???

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    Member iusckeeper's Avatar
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    Default Bull or cow???

    So I have the upper ship creek any bull moose permit and I came across a couple moose today that really got me thinking. It was a sow with a 1st year calf (I'm assuming). I know the hunt allows taking any bull, including calves, but I could not be 100% sure of the sex of the calf I saw today. Here is what I saw.... It was a calf, with the mom, and it had domed, white nubs above it's eyes. The nubs were about the same diameter of it's eyes, and they were perfectly round half circle domes coming out of the head (I would say rising about an inch domed up, NOT straight). There was no way this was a spike-fork, but this hunt does nor require that... only for the moose to be a bull. However, since I have never really prepared to come across a situation like this, or have never really studied calves in depth, I was not sure if some cow calves could have these as well. I was thinking that possibly a cow calf could show the same nubs, but just never really have them grow out. I know I have seen adult cows with plaque-like areas in the same area as a rack would start, so I kept second guessing myself. I didn't want to take a chance not being 100% confident that this moose was a bull, so I passed.

    What do you think? Bull? any chance it could have been a cow? I could not see a penis cavity nor did I have a chance to see it pee.

    And then comes the other moral question.... should I take an animal that is technically legal, but accompanied by a mother sow?

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    Off to bed but with that I leave the op with this. Don't monkey around trying to justify shooting a yr old calf, there are big bulls back there that you don't have to ask hey is that a bull or a cow. If you have no one to help you pack a moose out then you did the WRONG registration hunt.

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    To me knowledge, and I have studied calves a bit in the winter, bull calves are almost black in color (mostly) with lighter bellys, female calves tend to be lighter in color, being a medium brown, and as far as I know, female calves do not have nubs FROM MY KNOWLEDGE!!! you alot of times cant see the penis cavity as you call it on young bulls like what you saw.
    Eccleasties 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, There for the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

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    Well meat is meat if thats all your after. I my experience those spot will be spikes by next year but unless your sure hold of until you see hardware!

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    Member iusckeeper's Avatar
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    *quote deleted*

    Oops... hit a nerve with this guy. It is any bull for a reason... not because there are too many moose in the area, but because ADFG don't want that many moose around for some reason. If you read the justification for a legal moose in certain areas, they include calves on purpose. First and foremost, I wanted to know if this guy was legal. My second decision would be whether or not I was comfortable taking a legal animal that some people would clearly have a problem with taking. I didn't even get to my second decision.

    As for looking for other moose, this is an extremely tough hunt. If you don't have a horse, you can pretty much scratch your chances of bagging a moose. Finding any bull in this area (within packable distance) is hard enough at this time, seeing a second is near impossible. There is a reason why this hunt has always been less than 10% success rate, and the quota never met.

    " It does not state that you can shoot a male calf with its mother."

    Show me where it says I can't and I'll believe you.

    PS - I didn't shoot it in case you missed that part
    Last edited by Brian M; 10-30-2011 at 11:58. Reason: referenced deleted comment

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    I can't offer a good answer on whether you saw a bull or cow calf, however, the hunt conditions do not prohibit the taking of a calf accompanied by a cow: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...2&regyear=2011

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by .338WM View Post
    I can't offer a good answer on whether you saw a bull or cow calf, however, the hunt conditions do not prohibit the taking of a calf accompanied by a cow: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...2&regyear=2011
    Yep. The tag defines the legal animal is "any bull" and the definition of "bull" in the regs is a "male moose".

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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    Yep. The tag defines the legal animal is "any bull" and the definition of "bull" in the regs is a "male moose".
    The OP said, "It was a cow(sp?) with a 1st year calf (I'm assuming)." With some embellishment to the story, the question seems to be - the moose with the nubs, is that the "herd bull" or a "calf accompanied by mother?"

    The real answer would be revealed if you had pulled the trigger, and others potentially protest/report their opinions of the circumstances.

    I applaud your initial instincts and restraint ... as opposed to pulling the trigger and relying on some interpretation that would potentially require a biologist, game officer, attorney, and courts to decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iusckeeper View Post
    So I have the upper ship creek any bull moose permit and I came across a couple moose today that really got me thinking. It was a sow with a 1st year calf (I'm assuming). I know the hunt allows taking any bull, including calves, but I could not be 100% sure of the sex of the calf I saw today. Here is what I saw.... It was a calf, with the mom, and it had domed, white nubs above it's eyes. The nubs were about the same diameter of it's eyes, and they were perfectly round half circle domes coming out of the head (I would say rising about an inch domed up, NOT straight). There was no way this was a spike-fork, but this hunt does nor require that... only for the moose to be a bull. However, since I have never really prepared to come across a situation like this, or have never really studied calves in depth, I was not sure if some cow calves could have these as well. I was thinking that possibly a cow calf could show the same nubs, but just never really have them grow out. I know I have seen adult cows with plaque-like areas in the same area as a rack would start, so I kept second guessing myself. I didn't want to take a chance not being 100% confident that this moose was a bull, so I passed.

    What do you think? Bull? any chance it could have been a cow? I could not see a penis cavity nor did I have a chance to see it pee.

    And then comes the other moral question.... should I take an animal that is technically legal, but accompanied by a mother sow?
    Here I was thinking that most people wouldn't even have posted this. Silly me.

    Quote Originally Posted by iusckeeper View Post
    Oops... hit a nerve with this guy. It is any bull for a reason... not because there are too many moose in the area, but because ADFG don't want that many moose around for some reason. If you read the justification for a legal moose in certain areas, they include calves on purpose. First and foremost, I wanted to know if this guy was legal. My second decision would be whether or not I was comfortable taking a legal animal that some people would clearly have a problem with taking. I didn't even get to my second decision.

    " It does not state that you can shoot a male calf with its mother."

    Show me where it says I can't and I'll believe you.
    It probably has something to do with how the overall population is changed by an abundance of bulls and how that number disrupts the carrying capacity for the given hunt area. If "ADFG don't want that many moose around for some reason," wouldn't it be any MOOSE?

    Get out there and plug that calf, make sure you stop by your favorite watering hole on the way home. Let everyone see your success. I feel like their reaction will probably give you enough of an answer to what to do next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wet eNuf View Post
    The OP said, "It was a cow(sp?) with a 1st year calf (I'm assuming)." With some embellishment to the story, the question seems to be - the moose with the nubs, is that the "herd bull" or a "calf accompanied by mother?" The real answer would be revealed if you had pulled the trigger, and others potentially protest/report their opinions of the circumstances. I applaud your initial instincts and restraint ... as opposed to pulling the trigger and relying on some interpretation that would potentially require a biologist, game officer, attorney, and courts to decide.
    The question was whether the calf was a legal animal. I am pointing out to a responder that if it was a male moose, it was a legal animal based on the specific tag and the regulations that apply to it. That's all. It would be pretty easy to determine after the face whether it was legal or not. A simple glance "under the hood" would suffice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DucksAndDogs View Post
    Get out there and plug that calf, make sure you stop by your favorite watering hole on the way home. Let everyone see your success. I feel like their reaction will probably give you enough of an answer to what to do next time.
    That is really good advice doing what a bunch of guys in a bar tells you to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wet eNuf View Post
    The OP said, "It was a cow(sp?)
    Oops... mixing up my game animals. Yes, I meant a cow.

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    Kboom fill The freezer... don't mess around things happen you mite not see another one.

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    Do I give my friends advice? Jesus, no. They wouldn't take advice from me. Nobody should take advice from me. I haven't got a clue about anything..

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    Quote Originally Posted by akmike30 View Post
    Kboom fill The freezer... don't mess around things happen you mite not see another one.

    Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk
    So shoot the first legal anything you see on the opening day of the season? I mean, things happen, you might not see another one. Forget waiting to see what that calf may end up looking like years from now, let him have it now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DucksAndDogs View Post
    So shoot the first legal anything you see on the opening day of the season? I mean, things happen, you might not see another one. Forget waiting to see what that calf may end up looking like years from now, let him have it now.
    Not everyone is looking for a trophy to mount on the wall. Actually, I think those that are are in the minority but I don't have any hard numbers to support that. I can't speak for Mike, but I wouldn't go after the first thing that presented itself, but come the last day or so of the trip and I am still carrying around an unfilled tag/permit, my standards drop quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anchskier View Post
    Not everyone is looking for a trophy to mount on the wall. Actually, I think those that are are in the minority but I don't have any hard numbers to support that.
    I don't have hard numbers either, but I do have access to an extremely well published methodology that explains this. This point is clearly covered in our (mandatory, unless you're older than dirt) Hunter Safety class:

    Read about it here, or a thousand other places... http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/hunter-stages.php

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    This how I roll. If its legal its down. I don't care about horns. I like to know my freezer is full. I hunt for meat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akmike30 View Post
    This how I roll. If its legal its down. I don't care about horns. I like to know my freezer is full. I hunt for meat.

    Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk

    I hunt for meat as well. But the season isn't over and it's a calf. Seems like a waste of a tag if you're going to shoot a calf for meat this early in a season. Keep hunting. If you're truly after meat, why not look for a bigger animal? Oh, I know, laziness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DucksAndDogs View Post
    I hunt for meat as well. But the season isn't over and it's a calf. Seems like a waste of a tag if you're going to shoot a calf for meat this early in a season. Keep hunting. If you're truly after meat, why not look for a bigger animal? Oh, I know, laziness.
    That's twice in a few minutes that you've called legal, law-abiding hunters lazy.

    Is this what you want to stand for?

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    I was faced with a nubby bull once... (it was away from the mother) .. the nubs were so little I was waiting to watch it urinate before pulling the trigger... seems it didn't have to pee so it got to walk another year.. I didn't have a full freezer that year but it was fun trying..

    If you cant stand behind the troops in Iraq.. Feel free to stand in front of them.

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